Post Modern thinking in Bozeman, MT

A group of us have formed an informal meeting called "TrailBlazer Ministries." "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the 'trailblazer' and perfecter of our faith..." Hebrews 12:2 We will discuss a variety of topics and play a variety of worship music. Contact me at cellist@jesseahmann.com for more information.

Is is really necessary to be a full-preterist?

My question is: as long as a Christian takes a positive view of this world, what's the big deal. After long Theological debates, does it really edify your soul?

Preterism! I Can' Belive It!

I really get a kick out of Todd Strandberg. I recently came across an essay on his site, RaptureReady.com, about how he can’t believe preterism: http://www.raptureready.com/rr-preterism.html

I hope you all enjoy this essay as much as I did. His words are bolded.

Preterism! I Can’t Believe It!

By Todd Strandberg

One of my key reasons for believing in the pre-tribulation rapture is the fact all other views are always trying to undermine pre-tribulationism. Up until now, the most vocal group of opponents has been the post-trib and pre-wrath folks. I'm amazed to find preterism now on the attack, gaining ground by mostly converting pre-tribbers.

First of all, notice the title of his essay, I CAN’T Believe It. Todd, since when does what you think even matter to what is true? You are your own worst enemy to understanding the truth.

What is preterism? This theory argues that all Bible prophecy has been fulfilled; it states that nothing remains on the prophetic calendar. According to preterism, events like the rise of the Antichrist, the tribulation, the rapture, and the Day of the Lord all took place around 70 AD, the year the Romans invaded Jerusalem and destroyed the second Temple.

Very good, Todd, now that you understand the basics of preterism, we can begin to discuss and ask questions about HOW this can be true instead of ignorantly saying how this CAN’T be true.

I just cannot understand how anyone can follow a preterist line of thinking in light of current world events. As in many cases, pride is one of the most common reasons people begin following doctrinal error. They believe that they are part of a special group that has discovered a hidden truth. Never mind the fact that millions of people have joined them in supporting their folly.

Aww shucks, Todd! There you go again! You used the phrase, “I just cannot understand!” Did anyone catch what he says in his next sentence? He says, “PRIDE is one of the most common reasons people begin following doctrinal error.” Now, where does pride come from? Self? What personal pronoun did he just use in the previous sentence? Does anyone else see the irony in this?

Up until now, I've largely been ignoring preterism because it seemed equivalent to the Flat Earth Society. Well, I can't stand by and watch error run free, so it looks like I'm going to have to add preterism to the list of erroneous rapture views that I need to actively refute.

The heart of this error is based on Jesus' statement that "this generation shall not pass, till all things be fulfilled" (Mat 24:34). It seems easy enough to claim Jesus was speaking about a first-century generation; however, logic ends there when one contemplates the fulfillment of all Bible prophecy.

Logic only ends there for you because your paradigm kills it, Todd. Preterists know how to examine themselves for paradigms, and that is how many of them, including myself, have come to this view.

In order to make 70 AD the magic year, we would have to delete dozens of prophecies that were never fulfilled. When was the Gospel preached to all the nations? When was the Mark of the Beast implemented? What about China's 200-million-man army? When did 100-pound hailstones fall from the sky? And what date was it when the Euphrates River dried up?

We will never understand the future unless we first understand the past. The problem with Todd’s perspective is that he is not interpreting the scripture the way that the first century Christians understood it.

The questions are endless. Why did we have the rebirth of Israel? If Jerusalem was forever removed from being the burdensome stone, why has it now returned to that status? When did all the Jews shout, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord," as Jesus said they would?

A very, very, most excellent question, Mr. Strandberg. What if the rebirth of Israel is NOT the fulfillment of prophecy? If the modern day state of Israel is not the fulfillment of biblical prophecy, than what is it? Wait… have we been lied to? Once you understand preterism, you start having these kinds of deep thought provoking questions about the massive brainwashing that is going on in the world today.

After being so strict in their interpretation of Matthew 24:34, preterists then run roughshod over many clear statements of Scripture. They say that although the "resurrection" happened in 70 AD, the bodies of Christians were left in the grave.

Did Jesus come to conquer physical death or spiritual death? Read the previous post in this blog with Don Preston’s comments about the resurrection.

Preterists take the dangerous step of spiritualizing all passages of Scripture that relate to the nation of Israel, and claim that these refer to the church, the "New Israel." They teach that the "old earth," which Scripture says will pass away, is the Old Covenant. The new heaven and new earth, they say, is the New Covenant, and the "elements," which Scripture says will burn with fervent heat when this happens, are the "elements of the law."

I don’t understand why this is so dangerous… dangerous to you maybe because it would force you to make a painful paradigm shift?

Preterism produces some bizarre explanations for why the world is still experiencing suffering and calamity. One explanation I ran across cited God's need for population control as the reason for mankind's suffering. Here is what one preterist author wrote:

"I believe that people are born and people die. Kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall. God is the providential population controller. He brings famine, disease, natural catastrophes, wars and tumults. One-third of the population of Europe was destroyed by the Black Plague in the early part of this millennium. Eight hundred fifty thousand were killed in the 1556 earthquake in the Shanghai province of China. Two million were killed in World War II. Thirteen million were killed under Stalin and 6 million under Hitler. God is very equipped to control population."

Preterism provides a greater framing story for why the world is still experiencing suffering and calamity. The problem with Todd’s perspective is that he is so caught up in the physical life and death, he fails to realize that Jesus came to conquer spiritual death and not physical death. Life feeds off of life and there would be no physical life if there were not physical death. People die because that is the nature of Ecology. Ironically, Todd is still as confused as the Jews were in John Chapter 6. Jesus said in verse 51, “I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." Preterism confirms and validates Jesus’ statement because we understand the difference between physical and spiritual life. I am sure that Todd realizes that he possesses eternal life for believing Jesus died for his sins, but he fails to realize that his own doctrine contradicts itself.

Don K Preston's answer

Don K Preston,
Thank you for your continual defense of Biblical truth. I have questions
on the resurrection. (big surprise) Maybe you've answered these questions
in other articles or books. So maybe you could point me in the right
direction. David Pease, Tim Martin, myself, and many others want to get
you out to Montana one of these days. Hope to meet you soon.

My ongoing discussions with my PCA pastor about the resurrection have
trapped me. His arguments are shown in (). I can always point to other
verses stating my case for a spiritual only resurrection, but he chooses
these:

1.) Philippians 3:21 (Why does Paul use "Body" in reference to humble state
and "Body" later referring to the glory of Jesus if this is purely
spiritual?)

Response:
A.) The question is the identity of the "body" in the text, or so it seems
to me. It is normally assumed that Paul was speaking of a human body. I
rather take it as the body of Christ that was being transformed from glory
to glory.
B.) Note that in the early part of the chapter, Paul is discussing the
contrast between the two covenant worlds. He talks about physical
circumcision and spiritual circumcision. He has a true seed and a false. The
discussion in V. 21 cannot be divorced from this context of contrast of the
two worlds.
C.) Note that Paul said that it was his earnest hope to attain to the
resurrection. Now, if this is a purely physical thing, and, as is normally
held, every person who has ever lived is going to be raised, how in the
world would / could Paul say that it was his hope to attain to it?
D.) Note also that Paul emphatically declares that the resurrection was in
the process already! Note his statements that it was his desire to attain to
the resurrection. He then said he had not already attained, but, "to the
degree that we have already attained, let us walk by this..." Note that "to
the degree that we have already attained" ! Many commentators through the
years have observed that Paul was or seemed to be, saying that the
resurrection had already begun, but of course, since they had a certain
concept of the resurrection, they rejected that idea-- and Paul's words!
E.) Note that Paul uses the singular "body". He does not say, Who will
change our vile bodies." Now, the Greek does not demand a plural here, but,
the use of the singular, as in Romans 8:23, is surely not coincidental.
F.) Notice also Paul's reference to the "vile body." Did Paul actually
believe that the human body is vile? If so, then he must have considered
Jesus' human body in that same light! I have a tough time thinking or
believing that Paul viewed the human body as vile. However, in the light of
the earlier discussion, of the nature of the Old Covenant, in contrast to
the New, that becomes another story altogether!
G.) Finally, notice that Paul affirms that the resurrection and
transformation of the body was at hand, in 4:5. This cannot be overlooked!


2.)1 Cor 6:14 (Since this passage is in the context of defiling the physical
body, shouldn't we assume v14 is referring to the literal flesh?)


Response: It seems to me that we often overlook the fact that the
resurrection is a multi-faceted thing. The resurrection was not simply being
raised out of the body of sin death covenantally, but, being raised in glory
to live lives of righteousness! Note that in Romans 13:11, Paul told the
Romans that the Day was near, and they were to walk in holiness "as in the
Day." And, here is where it gets interesting. He told them that it was high
time for them to be raised out of sleep! (The resurrection was at hand, in
other words). The point is, that their raising was not of a human corpse,
but, a raising to a higher, more holy, more glorious kind of life,
consistent with the nature of the Day. This is an area of Covenant
Eschatology that is admittedly not explored near enough.


3.) 2 Cor 4:14 (example of the body following the Head in like manner)


Response: I will
not spend a lot of time on this, but simply observe that there is a
corporate concept that is present that cannot be ignored. Take careful
note of the pronouns! They are all plural, they are collectives! Also,
note that there was a dying and coming to life in the text that simply
cannot be taken in a physical body reference (see v. 10-11, where Paul
said that "we are dying, you are living"! Paul's "we" is the Jews and the
Old Covenant that is in the direct context of chapter 3ff, and the "you"
are the Gentiles coming into life through the death of that Old Covenant
world.


4.) Rom 8:18-25 (if we are still suffering, we are still awaiting a future
glory)

Response: We cannot ignore the audience relevance of this text! Paul was not
speaking of everyday, human suffering. He was addressing Christians
suffering for their faith! For a person to ignore this context is really
just bad exegesis.
Also, note that Paul says "the sufferings of this present time." That was
Paul's time, not your's and mine.
There are three words in the text that defy a long delayed future
application:
mello-- The Glory that is about to be revealed in us
Apekdekomai-- eagerly await
Earnest Expectation-- apokaradokeo-- to look with neck outstretched.

These are three very strong words of imminence and urgency. To ignore them
is not solid exegesis. They cannot be ignored.
Furthermore, the creation of the text is Old Covenant Israel, representative
of man under sin. It is not rocks, trees, mosquitoes, etc.! :-) The
prophetic background of the text is Isaiah 26:16f, where Israel labored as a
woman in labor, to bring forth righteousness and failed. But, God promised
the resurrection from that futility!



5.) Gen 3:17-20 (Aren't at least some of the curse passages physical? How did
they get resolved in 70ad?)


Response: Personally, I just don't see the material creation as cursed! When
you consider the following, it presents a problem-- or at least to me.
Psalms 19 says that the creation testifies of God, in a wonderful manner.
See also Romans 1, and a host of other passages that tell us that nature
testifies of God, of His nature and attributes.
Well, if the creation is so cursed, what does that say of the testimony of
nature about God?
To me, this is just a serious problem, in saying that it is the material
creation that is under the curse. It was man, alienated from God that was
under the curse, not the trees, rocks and mosquitoes!


Well, I will close, as it is getting going home time, and I am bushed. I
hope these few thoughts are helpful, and provoke further study.

For His Truth, and in His Grace,
Don K. Preston