On Monday, Sept 29th I listened to a debate between Don Preston and Brian Schwertley. I'm biased, but Don Preston handedly won the debate. (not saying the debate winner is always the correct one) However, most of the debate on Brian Schwertley's side was limited to statements like, "That's a bizarre interpretation...ect." At the end of the debate Brian called Covenant Eschatology a Damnable Heresy and no one should sit down and have a meal with a full preterist, and they should be immediately excommunicated. I'm concerned about Brian Schwertley's heart, and whether he indeed is living out as a "new creation." Brian Schwertley also mentioned that full preterism denies the gospel of Jesus. The denial of a future fleshly resurrection of the saints does not deny Christ's work on the cross, in fact understanding a Spiritual resurrection makes Christ's death and resurrection totally complete! Christ came and destroyed the last enemy which is death! His conquering of death also gave the final blow to Satan.
Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Don Preston held his composure very well, as Brian Schwertley essentially damned Don to hell.
Critical Review by:
Brian Schwertley, ReformedOnline.com
from
http://beyondcreationscience.com/index.php?pr=Review_Schwertley_2008
(Editor's Note: Comments made during closing statement of formal debate with Don Preston. Full recording of this debate (dated 9-25-08) is available at CovenantRadio.com)
"Full preterism denies the biblical meaning of the fall. They believe that physical death is natural... We're talking not just about eschatology here. We're talking about the gospel -- the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I want you to know that Don Preston gave approval to a book that not only denies the fall, as biblically defined. Beyond Creation Science is a horrible book. It teaches that the earth is millions and millions of years old. This book also teaches that the flood was a local flood; it was not a universal flood. This book is nothing but a ... cover to cover full of terrible heresies and garbage. This is an extremely dangerous, deadly false teaching..."
I'm not a liberal, but something is different about Palin
I'm wondering what you guys think of Palin?
Presuppositional Spinach
It seems like this debate on the timing of apocalyptic events transcends all theological debates, do you know what I mean? I thoroughly enjoyed watching the discussion on miracles in the last couple of posts. What makes this discussion so fluid and effective to the entire learning process is that all of you guys have re-examined your apocalyptic presuppositions at one point or another in your lives and have come to the consensus that the preterist interpretation is truth. The modern popular idea that the 'end times' are now in the present or in the future for us is the basic presupposition that most people come back to when discussing even minor details of theology or politics or philosophy or whatever.
How do you address someone's presuppositions in a debate like this? It's like trying to tell someone that they have a piece of spinach stuck in their teeth but they won't believe you because they can't see it. Only when we look in the mirror for ourselves does the reality set in. I guess a big piece of spinach stuck in your teeth isn't that big of a deal when everybody else around you has the same thing going on. Its like (insert name of popular bloviating futurist evangelical leader here) says that, "It has been prophesied that scoffers and false prophets would come in the last days and try to tell us that dental floss was delivered 2000 years ago!," or, "Who do you think you are to tell me that I have spinach stuck in my teeth?! Don't you know who I am?!"
The dispensationalist is affected daily by their own presuppositions, just as we all are though. The question we have to ask ourselves daily, however, is what we believe absolute God-given Truth or teachings from fallible man?
The question arose recently of why are more and more youth falling away from Christianity? I have my own idea for the cause of this dilemma because I was challenged with this as a youth and a young collegiate. Centered with futurist presuppositions, I struggled to find enough reason to love God with my mind in a crazy world I didn't understand. Do you guys know what I am talking about? Too much emotional chitter-chatter, not enough evidence; too much authoritative down-talk, not enough reason; too much gossip and hypocrisy, not enough focusing on the Truth of Jesus' message; too much apathy to cultural/social issues, not enough change; too much on emphasis 'me' and my personal salvation, not enough on God's Kingdom glorification.
How do you address someone's presuppositions in a debate like this? It's like trying to tell someone that they have a piece of spinach stuck in their teeth but they won't believe you because they can't see it. Only when we look in the mirror for ourselves does the reality set in. I guess a big piece of spinach stuck in your teeth isn't that big of a deal when everybody else around you has the same thing going on. Its like (insert name of popular bloviating futurist evangelical leader here) says that, "It has been prophesied that scoffers and false prophets would come in the last days and try to tell us that dental floss was delivered 2000 years ago!," or, "Who do you think you are to tell me that I have spinach stuck in my teeth?! Don't you know who I am?!"
The dispensationalist is affected daily by their own presuppositions, just as we all are though. The question we have to ask ourselves daily, however, is what we believe absolute God-given Truth or teachings from fallible man?
The question arose recently of why are more and more youth falling away from Christianity? I have my own idea for the cause of this dilemma because I was challenged with this as a youth and a young collegiate. Centered with futurist presuppositions, I struggled to find enough reason to love God with my mind in a crazy world I didn't understand. Do you guys know what I am talking about? Too much emotional chitter-chatter, not enough evidence; too much authoritative down-talk, not enough reason; too much gossip and hypocrisy, not enough focusing on the Truth of Jesus' message; too much apathy to cultural/social issues, not enough change; too much on emphasis 'me' and my personal salvation, not enough on God's Kingdom glorification.
"THE DAYS GO BY AND EVERY VISION COMES TO NOTHING."
Following is a post I made to my www.preterist.typepad.com and feel it should also be read here.
Ezekiel said: "The word of the Lord came to me: 'Son of man, what is this proverb you have in the land of Israel: 'The days go by and every vision comes to nothing.'" (Ezekiel 12:22) The Lord said "Say this to them, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to put an end to this proverb, and they will no longer quote it in Israel. . . . The days are near when every fision will be fulfilled. For there will be no more false visions or flattering divinations among the people of Israel. But I the Lord will speak what I will, and it shall be fulfilled without delay. For in your days, you rebellious house, I will fulfill whatever I say, delcares the Sovereign Lord. The word of the Lord came to me: "Son of man, the house of Israel is saying, 'The vision he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies about the distant future. Therefore say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: None of my words will be delayed any longer; whatever I say will be fulfilled, declares the Sovereign Lord." (Ezekiel 12-21-28).
The Israelites felt safe about the prophecy of their destruction and the loss of their Temple with the Babylonians used as God's instrument of judgment. Re-read the words of this passage. What does it mean He will not delay concerning his word through the prophet - these were not things for the distant future! God does speak plainly and in a timely manner. If God says 'SOON" He means "Soon"! WE can demonstrate this in the prophecy of Daniel: "But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end." He was also told to seal up the visions of this prophecy because the time was "far off in the distant future." God was specific here - the prophecy of Daniel was far off - it was fulfilled about 400 years later (that is far off). In Revelation John was told: "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this boo, because the time is NEAR." (Revelation 22:10). Time does make a difference to God's prophecies. For more about false prophets see my Blog at Blogger.com under my name D.L. Pease on uncle Jessie's Blog called WILL NOT DELAY. Watch for more some time. I may be gone a while to Europe. Remember - Life is Good, David
Ezekiel said: "The word of the Lord came to me: 'Son of man, what is this proverb you have in the land of Israel: 'The days go by and every vision comes to nothing.'" (Ezekiel 12:22) The Lord said "Say this to them, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to put an end to this proverb, and they will no longer quote it in Israel. . . . The days are near when every fision will be fulfilled. For there will be no more false visions or flattering divinations among the people of Israel. But I the Lord will speak what I will, and it shall be fulfilled without delay. For in your days, you rebellious house, I will fulfill whatever I say, delcares the Sovereign Lord. The word of the Lord came to me: "Son of man, the house of Israel is saying, 'The vision he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies about the distant future. Therefore say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: None of my words will be delayed any longer; whatever I say will be fulfilled, declares the Sovereign Lord." (Ezekiel 12-21-28).
The Israelites felt safe about the prophecy of their destruction and the loss of their Temple with the Babylonians used as God's instrument of judgment. Re-read the words of this passage. What does it mean He will not delay concerning his word through the prophet - these were not things for the distant future! God does speak plainly and in a timely manner. If God says 'SOON" He means "Soon"! WE can demonstrate this in the prophecy of Daniel: "But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end." He was also told to seal up the visions of this prophecy because the time was "far off in the distant future." God was specific here - the prophecy of Daniel was far off - it was fulfilled about 400 years later (that is far off). In Revelation John was told: "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this boo, because the time is NEAR." (Revelation 22:10). Time does make a difference to God's prophecies. For more about false prophets see my Blog at Blogger.com under my name D.L. Pease on uncle Jessie's Blog called WILL NOT DELAY. Watch for more some time. I may be gone a while to Europe. Remember - Life is Good, David
"THOSE WHO PROPHESY OUT OF THEIR OWN IMAGINATIONS"
"God spoke to me - in French - and told me to tell you to give all your money to me - not to any of the other T.V. ministers." (Steve Martin) Surely you do not believe God actually spoke to Steve Martin (especially in French). You know Steve Martin is a comedian and was not serious - right? I hear many people say "God told me to . . ." and I don't believe them any more than I believe God spoke to Steve martin. Either those who say "God spoke to me and said . . ." are comedians, being sarcastic, deluded, having auditory hallucinations, deceived, deluded, insane, on drugs, or just simply liars.
As full preterists we believe that every prophecy was fulfilled in 70 a.d. If all prophecy was fulfilled there is no need for prophets today. Paul said: " . . . but where there are prophecies, they will cease . . ." (I Corinthians 13:8) This prophecy of Paul was fulfilled in 70 a.d. God does not speak to us today - except through the Word of God, which is the Bible. If this is not so then we can not argue with authority that Mohammad was not a prophet of God. We can not argue that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. We can not argue that the Mormons do not have prophets today. We can not argue that Perry Stone did not receive a vision and hear God tell him what is in store for the United States. Yet, I can say with full confidence that none of these people are valid prophets of God. They are all prophets of their own "imaginations." (Ezekiel 13:2)
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these LAST DAYS he has spoken to us by the Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe." (Hebrews 1:1 & 2) All the New Testament prophecies are from Jesus Christ. He told the apostles he would bring to their remembrance through the Holy Spirit all that he said and taught them. This is the "knowledge" the would "pass away" - it passed away with the death of the last apostle. There are no apostles today - despite what the Mormons say. The book of Hebrews tells us of the superiority of Christ over the prophets, angels, levitical priesthood etc.
Some, like Perry Stone, would say "prophecy did not decease in 70 a.d. because the Book of Revelation was given after 70 a.d." That is false, but I will leave that for another blog. All Scripture was completed before 70 a.d. Let me just say that if any Scripture was written after 70 a.d. it is very, very strange that there is no mention of the destruction of the Temple as having taken place.
I urge you to stop saying "God told me . . .", unless it is what God says in the Bible. If you hear a message from God outside of the Scriptures you are either on drugs that you need to discontinue, or you are deluded, - or, dare I say it - "YOU ARE LYING" just like Mohammad, Joseph Smith and Perry Stone."
In the "last days" God spoke to us through His Son. These are not the "last days" - they were from about 30 a.d. to 70 a.d. More later. In Christ, David
As full preterists we believe that every prophecy was fulfilled in 70 a.d. If all prophecy was fulfilled there is no need for prophets today. Paul said: " . . . but where there are prophecies, they will cease . . ." (I Corinthians 13:8) This prophecy of Paul was fulfilled in 70 a.d. God does not speak to us today - except through the Word of God, which is the Bible. If this is not so then we can not argue with authority that Mohammad was not a prophet of God. We can not argue that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. We can not argue that the Mormons do not have prophets today. We can not argue that Perry Stone did not receive a vision and hear God tell him what is in store for the United States. Yet, I can say with full confidence that none of these people are valid prophets of God. They are all prophets of their own "imaginations." (Ezekiel 13:2)
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these LAST DAYS he has spoken to us by the Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe." (Hebrews 1:1 & 2) All the New Testament prophecies are from Jesus Christ. He told the apostles he would bring to their remembrance through the Holy Spirit all that he said and taught them. This is the "knowledge" the would "pass away" - it passed away with the death of the last apostle. There are no apostles today - despite what the Mormons say. The book of Hebrews tells us of the superiority of Christ over the prophets, angels, levitical priesthood etc.
Some, like Perry Stone, would say "prophecy did not decease in 70 a.d. because the Book of Revelation was given after 70 a.d." That is false, but I will leave that for another blog. All Scripture was completed before 70 a.d. Let me just say that if any Scripture was written after 70 a.d. it is very, very strange that there is no mention of the destruction of the Temple as having taken place.
I urge you to stop saying "God told me . . .", unless it is what God says in the Bible. If you hear a message from God outside of the Scriptures you are either on drugs that you need to discontinue, or you are deluded, - or, dare I say it - "YOU ARE LYING" just like Mohammad, Joseph Smith and Perry Stone."
In the "last days" God spoke to us through His Son. These are not the "last days" - they were from about 30 a.d. to 70 a.d. More later. In Christ, David
Prophet Land
One of the fundamental problems of prophetic futurism is its inability to understand and appreciate the varied types of literature we find in Scripture. Actually, I think it is deeper than that. In my experience, most futurists have an anemic imagination in general. Their eyes glaze over when they read the prophets, automatically jumping to the conclusion that the prophet is saying something that he is really not saying at all. The problem is that those with such weak imaginations cannot possibly see the text in any other way. How do you reason with someone who can't see any possibility other than the one in their own atrophied mind?
I have come to the tentative conclusion that the problem may be cultural more than theological. We, as scientific moderns, don't have a lot of use for aesthetics other than more "practical" things such as advertising theory or marketing method. Aesthetics serve a cruel master we call "the bottom line." Our "aesthetic vision" is withered to the point that we can't see past the end of our nose, so to speak. Sure, there are few "artsy" types who spend big bucks for obscure paintings or historical works of art. Then you find out that a lot of these people are buying the stuff as an investment: it's dollars and cents to them. But the general population finds all this irrelevant to their normal life. Besides, they are out trying put bread on the table [note metaphor-can you count them all in this paragraph?] rather than cultivate an aesthetic sense to the glory of God.
We are also at a disadvantage as moderns who, generally speaking, are not forced to spend a lot of time with nature. We drive an automobile virtually everywhere we go rather than walking from one place to another which allows time to observe the natural rhythms in our surroundings. We live in the comfort of our climate-controlled houses and work places. We see weather reports that tell us what the weather will be like in the next day... or seven. We don't grow our own food or raise and butcher our own animals. Many people have never even been around agricultural animals in any close way so that they experience their nature and personalities.
Now what happens when the Bible, written to people who had intimate, experiential knowledge of the physical world and nature, is handed to urban modern Americans? Well, some pretty bad things. All of a sudden you get the Bible talking about atomic bombs, international politics (at least since the rise of the UN), geological formation, and the linguistic record of the world. Is it too hard to see that modern Christians have forced the Bible into their own image as scientific moderns?
The timing is ironic as I was thinking about these things. This week I ran across a superb article that is a great exercise in training the biblical imagination: an essential element to accurate biblical understanding. This article by Morrison Lee (from South Korea) is called "Prophet Land."
I think this article is worth your time. If you are interested, you can read it for yourself here:
http://www.beyondcreationscience.com/index.php?pr=Prophet_Land
Tim Martin
co-author Beyond Creation Science
www.beyondcreationscience.com
I have come to the tentative conclusion that the problem may be cultural more than theological. We, as scientific moderns, don't have a lot of use for aesthetics other than more "practical" things such as advertising theory or marketing method. Aesthetics serve a cruel master we call "the bottom line." Our "aesthetic vision" is withered to the point that we can't see past the end of our nose, so to speak. Sure, there are few "artsy" types who spend big bucks for obscure paintings or historical works of art. Then you find out that a lot of these people are buying the stuff as an investment: it's dollars and cents to them. But the general population finds all this irrelevant to their normal life. Besides, they are out trying put bread on the table [note metaphor-can you count them all in this paragraph?] rather than cultivate an aesthetic sense to the glory of God.
We are also at a disadvantage as moderns who, generally speaking, are not forced to spend a lot of time with nature. We drive an automobile virtually everywhere we go rather than walking from one place to another which allows time to observe the natural rhythms in our surroundings. We live in the comfort of our climate-controlled houses and work places. We see weather reports that tell us what the weather will be like in the next day... or seven. We don't grow our own food or raise and butcher our own animals. Many people have never even been around agricultural animals in any close way so that they experience their nature and personalities.
Now what happens when the Bible, written to people who had intimate, experiential knowledge of the physical world and nature, is handed to urban modern Americans? Well, some pretty bad things. All of a sudden you get the Bible talking about atomic bombs, international politics (at least since the rise of the UN), geological formation, and the linguistic record of the world. Is it too hard to see that modern Christians have forced the Bible into their own image as scientific moderns?
The timing is ironic as I was thinking about these things. This week I ran across a superb article that is a great exercise in training the biblical imagination: an essential element to accurate biblical understanding. This article by Morrison Lee (from South Korea) is called "Prophet Land."
I think this article is worth your time. If you are interested, you can read it for yourself here:
http://www.beyondcreationscience.com/index.php?pr=Prophet_Land
Tim Martin
co-author Beyond Creation Science
www.beyondcreationscience.com
