"With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, 'Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.' Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their posessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And THE LORD ADDED TO THEIR NUMBER DAILY THOSE WHO WERE BEING SAVED." (Acts 2:40-47)
I want to begin what could become a very long discussion with the question titled above. This question comes about with the problem many preterists run into - they may be denied fellowship in a congregation even though they are Christians - they may even be excommunicated. We can ask the following questions:
1) What is necessary to be saved?
2) What is necessary to be a member of a congregation?
3) What could you do to lose your salvation?
4) What could you be excommunicated for?
5) Do you have to believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God?
a) Which version of the Bible?
- KJV only? Septuigent or Masoretic O.T.?
b) Every word taken literal or figurative?
6) Must you believe in a literal 6 day creation and a literal Adam & Eve?
7) Must you believe in a universal flood?
8) Must you follow the ten commandments & The Law?
9) Must you believe in the Virgin Birth?
10) That Jesus Christ is the Messiah? Priestly & Kingly?
11) Must you believe Jesus Christ died on the cross and was resurrected physically the third day?
12) Must you believe and embrace one of the Church creeds?
13) Must you believe in present day tongues, supernatural miracles & present day prophecy?
14) Must you be a member of the "Body of Christ" and the local Church? Which Church?
15) Are there things you must believe and follow to be a member of your congregation, but are not required to be saved?
16) Who can take the Lord's supper? Can a person who is saved be denied participation in the Lord's supper.
18) Must you follow certain rules of worship? Instrumental or non-instrumental congregational singing?
19) Must you be "Born Again" & how?
20) Must you believe Jesus Christ is coming soon?
21) Must you believe in a literal Millenial Reign of Christ?
22) Must you believe in the rapture?
I could go on with this list for a very long time (what is a long time?). I bring these questions up for the following reasons:
1) When I ask people to study eschatology and in particular preterism I am often told they need not study the subject because it really isn't important.
2) My person experience with congregations:
a) As a teenager I was a member of the Evangelical Free Church in Englewood, Florida which said you are saved by "faith only" but had strict rules of membership in the congregation such as you could not drink alcohol; dance; play cards; go to movies etc. etc. etc. One Sunday a man came forward and asked to be baptized. He was told he must be voted on by the congregation for worthiness to be a member of the Church (because baptism was a requirement to be a member of the congregation - though not to be a Christian). They voted he could not be baptized and be a member of the congregation because he played a piano in a restaurant that also served wine. The man stopped attending the congregation and was later found dead in a pond. I left the congregation.
b) My mother was excommunicated from the Lutheran Church when she married my father and began attending Church with him that was not a Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod).
c) I knew a woman who was told not to come back to an American Lutheran Church because she did not have fancy clothing.
d) I know a man who was questioned by the Belgrade Church of Christ as to his belief about musical instruments in worship and because he saw nothing wrong with that and other things he was asked not to attend.
The list can go on and on. So, can you be saved (be a Christian) and not be allowed to be a member, or fellowship, with a congregation?
18 comments:
“The list can go on and on.” I have an addition to (1): a) The responses I have had so far are of being indignant, incredulous, casting a dubious eye, and general dismissal of the whole matter altogether … and this is from people in the church.
It is ironic that we all view Christ as our Savior yet the preterist viewpoint is termed as downright heretical. I am totally at a loss as to how to broach the subject of preterism with people in my small community. I am not a doctor of theology or a pastor, but I wonder how one can ignore the points that preterism makes. I am having a hard time desiring to worship with others in a church setting who shun me for my belief in preterism or want to dismiss what I have to say. There. I said it. Is that pinheaded, typical Norwegian, or what?
I have spent a lifetime being an anti-intellectual gullible Christian believing whatever the pastor or the media would have me believe about the global flood, the coming tribulation, and Christ’s return. I have not taken personal responsibility for investigating exactly what the Bible says. Now, I think it’s time that preterism be given a voice. Either the prophecies of Christ have been fulfilled as preterism points out, or they have not.
I had never heard of preterism until a couple of years ago yet after careful reading and studying I find that it makes sense. Questions and concerns I have had my whole life with global flood/futurism have been duly addressed. My faith seems sweeter now than before. I can read the Bible with confidence. There is a sense of it being so simple that it was right in front of my nose all along.
We all perceive things through the veil of our own personal perspective, but this is scripture we’re talking about here, not opinion that differs from person to person or the ever-changing news of the day.
“So, can you be saved (be a Christian) and not be allowed to be a member, or fellowship, with a congregation?” It sure looks that way.
Great post, D.L. Pease!
For some, preterism is not the answer. And that is fine, my problem is when others attack me for believing in a different God. That is when there is a underlying heart issue.
It is not membership in a church organization or fellowhip that makes one a Christian and a member of the true church. It is having God's Holy Spirit dwelling in you that makes you a Christian and a member of God's church.
Years ago, I heard a radio evangelist named Herbert W. Armstrong explain it this way. You can have a local church congregation of 100 people. Within that group, mabye 99 have God's Holy Spirit and one does not. Then the 99 who have God's Spirit are really members of the Church in God's sight, but not the one who does not have God's Spirit dwelling in his mind. Now you can have another congregation down the street with 100 members, but in that church, 99 do not have the Holy Spirit and only one does. Then the one who has the Holy Spirit is a true Christian and a member of the true Church, but the other 99 are not true Christians and are not members of the Church in God's sight (Romans 8:9).
It is what God thinks, not what man thinks, that is important. We should try to fellowship with other Christians if possible, because that is what God teaches us in the Bible (Hebrews 10:24-25), but if we cannot do that due to circumstances beyond our control, God understands. Even in the first century, some were excluded from their local congregation unjustly (3 John 9-10).
You are absolutely right! However, I'm concerned you think animal sacrifices must be reinstated.
Jesse, read author@ptgbook.org blog on the 10 commandments, Sabbath and Animal Sacrifices. Just click on his name and it will take you there, then go to his blog on Preaching the Gospel. He does not believe Ezekiel 47 has been fulfilled. Dear Author@ptgbook.org we preterists believe all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 a.d. The waters of Ezekiel 47 are Christian Baptism. There is NOT going to be any animal sacrifices authorized by God - Christ's blood is all sufficient - why offer to God something so inferior to His own Sons blood? I know that the True Church is the Spiritual Body of Christ and He ads to the Church daily such as are being saved, however, my point is that all congregations of believers I have met have more strict man-made rules for fellowship than Christ gave us for Salvation and membership in the Kingdom of God (which is the Church). Those who say we are saved by "Faith Alone" say that is not enough for a Believer to be a member of their congregation. In Christ's Love, David
David, Christ is the living water, not the act of Baptism.
John 7:37-39
37 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink.
38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
So the Holy Spirit is our Living Water fulfilled at Pentecost.
Dear Uncle Jesse,
On Pentecost the Disciples received the "special" gift of the Holy Spirit" in fulfillment of Joel, but Peter then told the people present to "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38). It is through baptism into Christ that we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. When Christ was baptized "to fulfill all righteousness" the Holy Spirit came down upon Him in the form of a Dove.It is through baptism's waters that the Holy Spirit flows into us, through us and out of us.
In Christ's love, David
"Can a preterist be saved & still be denied church membership?" What's a person to do, then? I am wondering why there are only small groups of preterists who communicate through blogs and informal gatherings. If preterism has been the heart cry of many for years why are there not established churches for such?
Preterists are in many congregations. I'm a member of the Bozeman Church of Christ - there are only three of us that are preterists, although there were more, but they moved away. The Ardmore Church of Christ (Ardmore, Oklahoma) is a preterist congregation - most, if not all are preterists. I'll let the other contributors to this blog tell you what congregations they are members of, if they so choose. We are not all Church of Christ members. I am the only Church of Christ person contributing to this blog. In Christ's love, David
Yeah, only Church of Christ folks are so bigoted about baptism. Through the sign of baptism, we are raised to new life! But it is not the actual act of baptism that gives us new life but Christ.
1 Cor 10:2
"and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea."
According to this verse the key word is "unto." (eis) When the preposition eis "in, into or unto," comes after the verb "baptize" it means "in identification with."
David, when I was baptized in the Jordan river by my preacher and an elder, I identified with Christ's death and resurrection.
". . .ONLY CHURCH OF CHRIST FOLKS ARE SO BIGOTED ABOUT BAPTISM." (unclejesse)
Do you actually believe we are "bigoted" abut baptism? Why was Christ baptized? Why did Christ command us to baptize? Why did Peter tell the people on the day of Pentecost to be baptized? Why were all the instances of conversion in the book of Acts involved in baptism? Why did all of the Church Father's believe you are "Born Again" in Baptism (do you know of any that didn't believe that)?
"ONLY" Church of Christ folks?
1) Christian Church folks believe you must be baptized.
2) The Catholic Church believes you must be baptized.
3) The Greek Orthodox
4) The Russian Orthodox
5) The Serbian Orthodox
6) The American Orthodox
7) AL THE ORTHODOX CHURCHES
That is by far the majority of those who claim the name of Christ!
Actually the minority of Churches teach "Faith Only."
Many Denominations that believe in "FAITH ONLY" require baptism to be a member of their Denomination. I just ran across this interesting article about membership in the Southern Baptist congregations:
MEMBERSHIP & BAPTISM
Church membership cannot be separated from baptism in the New Testament, argues R. Stanton Norman, an associate professor of theology at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, in another column on the Messenger site.
“The New Testament clearly teaches that a local church is only to be comprised of those persons whose allegiance belongs exclusively to Jesus Christ,” Norman writes. “Baptism was the divinely, publicly instituted ‘point of entry’ into the membership of a local congregation of believers.
“The baptismal act publicly signified the transition of the individual from the old life to the new life in Christ; old allegiances were forsaken in order that new allegiances with Christ and His people could be formed. The believer gave testimony to this spiritual transition in the rite of baptism. By submitting to the public act of baptism, a person publicly joined with the church in its confession that ‘Jesus is Lord’ and expressed the intention to be considered a member of the congregation.”
Biblical basis
The distinctively Baptist understanding of the church as a body of believers baptized by immersion has a solid foundation in Scripture, William B. Tolar, retired dean of the School of Theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, writes in another column.
“Our Baptist forefathers defined the church as being a body of baptized believers because of their interpretations and high concept of the divine inspiration of Scripture and their serious regard for the Lordship of Jesus Christ,” Tolar writes. “They understood Jesus' command in Matthew 28:19-20 should be followed in the sequence in which it is recorded: ‘make disciples ... baptizing them ... and ... teaching them to observe all that I commanded you.’
“The Greek word for ‘disciples’ (believers, students, learners) preceded the act of baptism, and being baptized (the Greek word means to dip, plunge or immerse) was also clearly a part of Christ's command,” Tolar observes. “Because the risen Lord had commanded them to immerse believers (and not to sprinkle or simply pour water on them), Baptist scholars were convinced that was the proper sequence and immersion was the biblical mode.”
Can you participate in a Presbyterian Church at the Lord's Table if you are not baptized (sprinkled)? I don't know - let me know.
The whole point of my original blog is that Denominations and local congregations often require more than "FAITH ONLY" in order to partake of their observance of the Lord's Supper; formally place membership; fellowship; and, be considered a brother in Christ.
Jesse - it grieves me that you would consider me bigoted because I take seriously Christ's command.
It grieves me that you would call me bigoted when my teaching on baptism is to save the lost and include all those who believe to be included - not excluded.
We as preterists love debate on the subject - we should also love debate on issues of salvation.
In Christ's unbigoted love,
David
Sorry to call you bigoted, my spirit of debate is in love and not name calling and personal attacks. Thank you for your kind response.
The orthodox churches you mentioned mainly 'sprinkle' their infants. I was referring to a credo type baptism in conjunction with salvation.
I believe baptism is important, and I believe the Biblical model is credo-baptism done by pouring water or immersion.
Also, I believe faith without works is dead, but on the contrary, to the man that does not work his faith is credited to him as righteousness.
The act of baptism is not what saves, but Christ's work that saves.
At baptism we "identify with Christ" as Scripture says.
Your friend in Christ,
Jesse
I did not take "bigoted" personally because I know I'm not and I know the love for the truth that you have. I know the Orthodox Churches have not stood by the true Biblical principal on mode of baptism, but they have on the purpose. In the Orthodox Study Bible as a note on John 3:5 it says: "The birth of water and the Spirit is a direct reference to Christian baptism and the gift of the Holy Spirit. . ." (page 1427) There is also a very good article entitled "The New Birth" on page 1428. The majority of the Christian world agrees with me - not "Faith Only" and more importantly so does the Scriptures.
You say the purpose is to be identified with Christ - Where? I can say baptism was:
1) Commanded by Christ
2) Preached by the Apostles
3) For the Remission of Sin
4) With the promise of the Holy Spirit be given
5) A burial with Christ
6) A resurrection with Christ
7) A way of being saved (I Peter 3:21).
8) An answer of a good conscience in Christ by His resurrection
9) Is a Spiritual mystery that God uses - it is the Work of God, not a work of man.
More later.
In Christ's love,
David
You know, I was wondering where this post went. I was worried it might have been raptured :-)
I won't wade too far into this debate, but here's a question to consider: what is the church and how does one become a 'member' of it?
I find the classical distinction between the visible church and the invisible church to be useful in this context. The invisible church is the universal body of all believers. All who have professed Christ as Lord and Savior and truly follow him in their hearts are members of the invisible, or spiritual, church. The visible church, by contrast, is the visible manifestation of the body of Christ. It is usually composed of both believers and unbelievers, since we can't know with absolute certainty that every member of a given congregation is truly saved.
So, to get back to David's question about the relationship between preterism and church membership, my opinion is that the visible church should strive to reflect the reality of the spiritual church as much as humanly possible. I honestly struggle with the concept of "church membership," since my faith in Christ is my token of membership in His spiritual body. I believe that I should be able to walk into any given body of believers and be welcomed as a brother in the Lord. Because of this, I don't believe it is appropriate to deny any sincere Christian fellowship in the church, even where theological differences exist.
"You do not become a 'dissident' just because you decide one day to take up this most unusual career. You are thrown into it by your personal sense of responsibility, combined with a complex set of external circumstances. You are cast out of the existing structures and placed in a position of conflict with them. It begins as an attempt to do your work well, and ends with being branded an enemy of society."
- Vaclav Havel
Since it seems that I have unintentionally killed this discussion, I wanted to resurrect it since I think David's topic is important.
"Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ." (Galatians 1:10-12)
For those of us who participate in this preterist-minded blog, we each have our own story of how we got to our current theological orientation. Most often, this began by recognizing that the doctrine of dispensationalism (futurism) in biblical prophecy is a gospel that man made up. We all mostly came to our status as preterists from questioning what we were taught from man and asking Jesus Christ to show us the truth. Therefore, since we can confidently say that the gospel that we preach is not something man made up, why are we still trying to win approval of men? If we all (mankind) were in genuine pursuit of truth, we wouldn't have these little squabbles with our congregations (behold, the power of a paradigm). Greater is the truth that we have found because we don't seek to win man's approval first, but God's.
So, since the original subject matter of this post was lost somewhere in a whirlwind of animal sacrifices and baptism and bigotry, I would like to know why are we dismayed when our congregations reject our opinions when we are confident that we have found empirical truth in preterism? It's only human nature to reject something that comes from outside one's comfort zone. I understand it is helpful to have a group of supporters around you that believe in the same things (sometimes) but truth begets truth and if there are more truth-seekers in your congregation than closed-minded lemmings, then slowly but surely, truth will prevail.
"So, since the original subject matter of this post was lost somewhere in a whirlwind of animal sacrifices and baptism and bigotry"
Funny stuff Ryan! I will respond to David soon, I've been busy lately; but will return to baptism and bigotry very soon!
I want to clarify what my post here is really about. If you read the passage of Scripture I begin with you will notice:
1) Those who would "save" themselves from the "corrupt generation" were "baptized."
2) 3,000 were added to "their number that day"
3) It was not men, or a congregation that added to the Church, but "THE LORD ADDED TO THEIR NUMBER DAILY THOSE WHO WERE BEING SAVED."
I agree completely that "The Church" of Christ is not a man-made institution, but is the Spiritual Body of Believers that the Lord adds to. However, there were in the 1st century local congregations of believers that met together and had Elders and Deacons. They did not have a creed. The first Creed I know of is the Nicean Creed - completely man made.
Jesse understand where I am coming from. Here is the thesis:
IF THOSE WHO BELIEVE YOU ARE "SAVED BY FAITH ALONE" REALLY BELIEVE THAT THEY COULD NOT HAVE THEIR "TRADITIONS OF MEN" EXCLUDE THOSE WHO PROFESS THE "FAITH ALONE" DOCTRINE FROM THEIR FELLOWSHIP. BY THEIR CREEDS AND OTHER MAN MADE RULES THEY REALLY DEMONSTRATE THEIR IS NO SUCH THING AS "FAITH ALONE." To illustrate this I have listed all these questions. It is by the conduct and actions, or lack thereof that people can be excluded from fellowship, and that only until they repent. Is what is necessary for salvation and fellowship with a Christian congregation the same - if not why?
In Christ's love, David
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