"God spoke to me - in French - and told me to tell you to give all your money to me - not to any of the other T.V. ministers." (Steve Martin) Surely you do not believe God actually spoke to Steve Martin (especially in French). You know Steve Martin is a comedian and was not serious - right? I hear many people say "God told me to . . ." and I don't believe them any more than I believe God spoke to Steve martin. Either those who say "God spoke to me and said . . ." are comedians, being sarcastic, deluded, having auditory hallucinations, deceived, deluded, insane, on drugs, or just simply liars.
As full preterists we believe that every prophecy was fulfilled in 70 a.d. If all prophecy was fulfilled there is no need for prophets today. Paul said: " . . . but where there are prophecies, they will cease . . ." (I Corinthians 13:8) This prophecy of Paul was fulfilled in 70 a.d. God does not speak to us today - except through the Word of God, which is the Bible. If this is not so then we can not argue with authority that Mohammad was not a prophet of God. We can not argue that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. We can not argue that the Mormons do not have prophets today. We can not argue that Perry Stone did not receive a vision and hear God tell him what is in store for the United States. Yet, I can say with full confidence that none of these people are valid prophets of God. They are all prophets of their own "imaginations." (Ezekiel 13:2)
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these LAST DAYS he has spoken to us by the Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe." (Hebrews 1:1 & 2) All the New Testament prophecies are from Jesus Christ. He told the apostles he would bring to their remembrance through the Holy Spirit all that he said and taught them. This is the "knowledge" the would "pass away" - it passed away with the death of the last apostle. There are no apostles today - despite what the Mormons say. The book of Hebrews tells us of the superiority of Christ over the prophets, angels, levitical priesthood etc.
Some, like Perry Stone, would say "prophecy did not decease in 70 a.d. because the Book of Revelation was given after 70 a.d." That is false, but I will leave that for another blog. All Scripture was completed before 70 a.d. Let me just say that if any Scripture was written after 70 a.d. it is very, very strange that there is no mention of the destruction of the Temple as having taken place.
I urge you to stop saying "God told me . . .", unless it is what God says in the Bible. If you hear a message from God outside of the Scriptures you are either on drugs that you need to discontinue, or you are deluded, - or, dare I say it - "YOU ARE LYING" just like Mohammad, Joseph Smith and Perry Stone."
In the "last days" God spoke to us through His Son. These are not the "last days" - they were from about 30 a.d. to 70 a.d. More later. In Christ, David
15 comments:
David,
"God told me..." is used wrong 99.999% of the time. However, what about the remote village in Nepal, where God has shown himself through miracles?
Jesse
Jesse,
"God told me. . ." is used wrong 100% of the time, unless it is "God told me through the Scriptures" and proceeds to quote it or at least give a paraphrase of it. My point is "Prophecies ceased" in 70 A.D. - if not then all prophecies were not fulfilled in 70 A.D. I did not say all MIRACLES ceased, because the Scriptures do not say they did, therefore I can't say definitively that there are no miracles in Nepal - But, define miracles - it is not "Prophecy." It is not "Tongues." It is not "knowledge" as I defined it. Did you see a miracle of "Prophecy" in Nepal - I doubt it.
In Christ, David
Tongues...not in the characteristic definition, but I believe today God can open the ears of people to hear the gospel of Christ in their own language. (when the speaker is speaking in another language)
A prophecy to a certain people group or individual is okay, but certainly prophecies relating to "the end of the age" are closed.
Jesse,
Tongues in the N.T. is definately languages that the people did not know, but was a miracle. I have
known people who were my friends say they spoke in tongues. I heard them - I don't believe it, but if you do I still consider you my brother in Christ.
I do not believe a "certain people ground or individual" receives prophecy today - the prophet is a false prophet. There is no need for them any more - they are INFERIOR to Christ (Hebrews 1:1-3)
Why do they need prophecy when they have the Word of God. The perfect has come in the flesh (Christ) and in the form of the written word of God. Jesse, was Mohammad a prophet to a "certain people group"? Was Joseph Smith a prophet to a "certain people group"? If you think prophecy is valid today then how can you know these two frauds are not prophets?
In Christ, David
We agree on "tongues"
There is a need for prophesy if the church does not have the word of God yet. What people group will believe me, if I just speak the word to them. I believe preterism doesn't nullify the use of prophesy to a new tongue or tribe.
Jesse,
Do you have Scripture to back up your "opinion" - I think not. Was the Word preached to the whole world in fulfillment of prophecy in the first century? If all people that have never heard (and how shall they hear except one be sent to them), or read the Scriptures then prophecy has to continue forever - because there are always new children born and they do not hear it. I would like Ryan, Tim and Don to give us their insight into this. Did you read the blog I wrote since this one? This is good - debate to seek the truth and make us all think and read - now, maybe I should start taking my pills again that gave me visions and I could give you some "new" prophecy (ha!). Have a great weekend brother - I'm enjoying watching my Gators destroy Tennessee. In Christ, David
Hi guys,
I've been out of the loop a bit, but I am glad that the blog is active.
I am in essential agreement with Ryan's blog on the problem he mentions. We have a lot of this "God told me" "God told us as a family" stuff in our community as well.
The problem I have is that the general tendency I have seen in these situations is for people to make decisions they want to make and then "baptise" that decision with "God told me."
That is very convenient. Then, later, when that decision turned out to be a wrong decision, another "word from the Lord" comes and leads them to do something else... feeding a perpetual cycle.
It really is a self-serving, immaturity at work here. People need to grow up and become responsible and learn from parts of the Bible like the Proverbs which is filled with practical wisdom.
Don't you get the idea from Proverbs that God's people are supposed to use their head and make prudent decisions? I do.
As to the tongues issue, I do believe they were given for the transition time period. I would add a bit to that as well, as hearing foreign languages in the land was actually a manifestation of a curse on Israel according to the Law.
The practice of tongue-speaking was a sign, Paul tells us, not for the believer, but the unbeliever. That sign was that Old Covenant Israel was under the curse of the covenant for their unbelief.
That being said, I would make a distinction between sign-gifts in the New Testament (prophecy/tongues/healings etc. which served a specific purpose in the infant Church) and "miracle" broadly considered.
I believe miracles are much more rare than most Christians do today, but I do not believe that miracles are attached to any time period. Perhaps my definition of a miracle is too broad, but I believe God works in ways that are, quite plainly, miraculous.
That is my take at the moment on the subject at hand...
Tim Martin
Oh sorry, David.
I had missed that you posted this entry, not Ryan.
Sorry about that...
Tim Martin
An Open question to any reader of this blog.
I already know the answer to the following question, but I'd like your insight to inquiry posed:
"Is there room for demonic possessions within preterism? What would John Anderson have to say about that." :)
I understand miracles in terms of the miraculous thing in nature, but here's a question; "How close to the 'charismatic definition' do you get in your understanding?
Thanks to unclejesse and Tim for your comments to my post. Discourse and even debate can only help to lead us to the truth in Christ. I love you guys in the Lord. Answer to unclejesse concerning demonic possession in preterism - NO! There are evil acts by man out of his own imaginings and heart - not that "the devil made me do it". Jesus is Lord and KING and Satan is no longer the prince of this world. Concerning any charasmatic type miracles the answer is not even close. No charasmatic tongues or healings at all. Would it be good to have among ourselves Godly oral debate as well as written? In Christ, David
I don't really have much to contribute to this conversation since I haven't studied it personally but I enjoy learning from you guys.
What about miracles of physical healing? I've been strongly urged by a family friend to attend a conference in Bozeman later on this week:
http://www.ibethel.org/itineraries/Kris-Vallotton/itinerary.html
I took a look at their website and it looks like they are huge on physical healing miracles.
I remember from details in Tim's book that Christ did not come to physically save us but spiritually save us. If it's not too far off subject, what is your opinion on this, guys?
Ryan,
I think it is a mistake to think of miracles specifically or predominantly in terms of physical healings.
They may happen. Doctors talk about situations that are medically hopeless, but the patient recovers. Admittedly, these are very rare cases.
I wouldn't look for miraculous healings in some kind of scheduled meeting, though. That appears to me to be the effect of a charismatic mentality that confuses the last days context of biblical sign-gifts. If they are trying to re-enact the New Testament examples, then there are going to be big problems, IMO.
With all that being said, I have a wide definition of miracle. How is it that certain things in our lives take place at just the right time. I think timing can be miraculous, even when the event itself is perfectly normal.
Then there are examples of miraculous protection. A lot of people have talked about being in a situation where there was every logical reason for serious injury or death. Yet, God's hand of protection was on them and everything around them.
I believe God also works through means to bring certain people into our lives at just the right time. Things that seem random from our perspective may be far from random in hindsight. I have a lot of experience with this in my own life, and I am left with the distinct conviction that God worked miraculously to bring something to pass he desired.
A lot of this issue of miracle is based in how you define "miracle."
I have gravitated to a very wide and broad understanding. Those that disagree with me about this, in my experience, have a very limited and specific definition of miracle. If I accepted their definition of miracle, then I would probably agree with them.
A very good book that I would recommend on this is "The Divine Conspiracy" by Dallas Willard. Willard is no preterist, and I don't agree with the last few chapters of his book, but what he accomplished in that book was very, very impressive to me.
In fact, it totally revolutionized my practical experience of Christianity... on many levels.
Talk to you guys later,
Tim Martin
www.beyondcreationscience.com
I loved the book, "Divine Conspiracy". How do we limit tongues to only 30-70ad? Why is this a manifestation of the curse? Tim, are you going back to the tower of Babel, then in that case, it would point to a reversal of the curse! Once, nobody could understand each other, then they could at Pentecost. Now that we are living beyond the end times, is it really that clear that tongues ceased, or is it still used to continue the expansion of His Kingdom?
Jesse,
Babel was reversed in the NT era. That is one relationship I am convinced that we have to pay very close attention to.
If tongue gifts are still ongoing, then the curse at Babel is still being "undone." In that case, all was not fulfilled by A.D. 70. Ongoing tongues is inescapably a futurist doctrine. Besides, Paul said they would cease.
My reference to tongues as a curse (on the unbelieving, unfaithful Jews) is drawn from Deut. 28:29 and other places in the Law.
Paul is working from that motif when he said tongues are a sign to unbelievers, not believers. Modern charismatics reverse this because they don't have a clue about the covenant context of the charismata in the NT.
The breaking out of tongues among the early Christians (some of whom were Jews) was a sign that the unbelieving Jews had broken covenant. That makes the tongues in the New Testament fulfillment of Deut. 28 and other parts of the Law.
If you ponder that context, then I think you can see the problem with applying the same details in our day.
Blessings,
Tim Martin
P.S. The Divine Conspiracy is really an amazing book...
Miracles - prayers
The question I would raise is: Are there miracle workers today? Do we have true faith healer? If so I would ask: 1) can miracle workers raise the dead? 2) Can miracle workers turn water into wine? 3) Can miracle workers walk on water? I do believe God heals people today. He heals them by answering our prayers - NOT BY MIRACLE WORKERS. Is answered prayer a miracle - no. To preach the gospel to people in foreign languages do we need a special gift of "tongues" today - NO. We are to do the works. We are to learn to speak and translate the Gospel into their language. We have that capability. How do they get faith - "By hearing the Word" (which comes to us today only through the Bible) and "How they they hear?" By sending a preacher!
Life itself is a miracle, but not a miracle in the sense of "sign" and "wonders". Tim is correct - those were for the "last days" and the last days only went from 30 a.d. to 70 a.d. - if you don't believe that you are not a full preterist. When I was a young youth minister in Harlingen, Texas people were lining up to sop up some "holy" water that had "miraculously" sprung from a tree - it was not miraculous the tree roots broke through a water pipe and the water happened to come out through the tree - but, I could not get people to believe it was not a "miracle". Yes, prayer does get answered by God - that is not a miracle in the Biblical sense. I will have much more to say about this - I need to give you all Scripture to back this up, so I must study more. On Sunday we thought my dad was going to die any minute - he could not walk or talk, or eat. Now he can. We prayed and God answered prayer (not audibly) He just does it. The way God did it is that we suddenedly realized that my dad was a lot worse since taking a couple new pills. We stopped giving them to him and he is much better now. My brother and I are not "faith healers", but we did stop giving him the pills.
So - I do not believe there is anybody that is a "prophet" today. I do not believe in a miraculous gift to "tongues". I do believe in Jesus Christ and that He dwells in us through the Holy Spirit. I do not believe in "super natural" miracles or in faith healers! Oh ya, one more thing - I know a missionary in Nepal - he heals people - he is a dentist - sent there by our congregation to heal people of dental problems and to preach the Gospel to them.
More later. In Christ, David
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