Hey guys,
I have a question.
In a recent sermon from the book of Jude, I had to go back and read Genesis 19. What surprised me is that it seems to me that what is going on is a sort of proto-Passover. Two angels go into Sodom and tell Lot that he needs to leave town -- fast. The details take place at night, just like Israel's Passover. Angels are involved. The wicked who tormented the righteous (2 Pet. 2:8) were destroyed. But the key that tipped me off to the parallels is Gen. 19:3:
"He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate."
Am I off-base to suggest a Passover theme here?
Of course, then the next question is where does Lot and his family go? Well, Lot is the father of the Ammonites and the Moabites. We find out later in Deut. 2:9, 16-19 that Lot had a promised land that God told Israel to respect.
Have any of you thought about this? Have you ever heard of anyone teach on the "promised land of Lot"? We tend to think of the promised land as something unique to Israel. However, it appears that some Gentiles? in the Old Testament also had a land possession. Please correct me if you think I am wrong.
Now getting really wild, I wonder if this might match up with covenant creation. In the old creation there is both land and sea. This is modeled in the temple architecture with the holy of holies representing heaven, the inner courts land, and the outer courts sea.
Think visually of what we have after Joshua's conquest in the land. Israel is in the center of the Jordan valley with the tabernacle/temple. The Edomites are up in the hill country of Seir (Deut. 2:2-6) on one edge with their land possession. The Moabites and Ammonites are on the wilderness edge with their land possession.
Looks to me like a living representation of tabernacle/temple architecture. Israel, land, close to God's heart serving in the inner courts. Gentiles, sea, living around the outside of the worship of God, at a distance.
Am I totally nuts?
Tim Martin
co-author, Beyond Creation Science
www.beyondcreationscience.com
Election Sermon and "Of Kings and Covenants" Conference
Don't forget about the conference this weekend!
Shaping up to be a pretty interesting event:
Election Sermon and "Of Kings and Covenants" Conference
Tim Martin
www.beyondcreationscience.com
Shaping up to be a pretty interesting event:
Election Sermon and "Of Kings and Covenants" Conference
Tim Martin
www.beyondcreationscience.com
CAN A PRETERIST BE SAVED & STILL BE DENIED CHURCH MEMBERSHIP?
"With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, 'Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.' Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their posessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And THE LORD ADDED TO THEIR NUMBER DAILY THOSE WHO WERE BEING SAVED." (Acts 2:40-47)
I want to begin what could become a very long discussion with the question titled above. This question comes about with the problem many preterists run into - they may be denied fellowship in a congregation even though they are Christians - they may even be excommunicated. We can ask the following questions:
1) What is necessary to be saved?
2) What is necessary to be a member of a congregation?
3) What could you do to lose your salvation?
4) What could you be excommunicated for?
5) Do you have to believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God?
a) Which version of the Bible?
- KJV only? Septuigent or Masoretic O.T.?
b) Every word taken literal or figurative?
6) Must you believe in a literal 6 day creation and a literal Adam & Eve?
7) Must you believe in a universal flood?
8) Must you follow the ten commandments & The Law?
9) Must you believe in the Virgin Birth?
10) That Jesus Christ is the Messiah? Priestly & Kingly?
11) Must you believe Jesus Christ died on the cross and was resurrected physically the third day?
12) Must you believe and embrace one of the Church creeds?
13) Must you believe in present day tongues, supernatural miracles & present day prophecy?
14) Must you be a member of the "Body of Christ" and the local Church? Which Church?
15) Are there things you must believe and follow to be a member of your congregation, but are not required to be saved?
16) Who can take the Lord's supper? Can a person who is saved be denied participation in the Lord's supper.
18) Must you follow certain rules of worship? Instrumental or non-instrumental congregational singing?
19) Must you be "Born Again" & how?
20) Must you believe Jesus Christ is coming soon?
21) Must you believe in a literal Millenial Reign of Christ?
22) Must you believe in the rapture?
I could go on with this list for a very long time (what is a long time?). I bring these questions up for the following reasons:
1) When I ask people to study eschatology and in particular preterism I am often told they need not study the subject because it really isn't important.
2) My person experience with congregations:
a) As a teenager I was a member of the Evangelical Free Church in Englewood, Florida which said you are saved by "faith only" but had strict rules of membership in the congregation such as you could not drink alcohol; dance; play cards; go to movies etc. etc. etc. One Sunday a man came forward and asked to be baptized. He was told he must be voted on by the congregation for worthiness to be a member of the Church (because baptism was a requirement to be a member of the congregation - though not to be a Christian). They voted he could not be baptized and be a member of the congregation because he played a piano in a restaurant that also served wine. The man stopped attending the congregation and was later found dead in a pond. I left the congregation.
b) My mother was excommunicated from the Lutheran Church when she married my father and began attending Church with him that was not a Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod).
c) I knew a woman who was told not to come back to an American Lutheran Church because she did not have fancy clothing.
d) I know a man who was questioned by the Belgrade Church of Christ as to his belief about musical instruments in worship and because he saw nothing wrong with that and other things he was asked not to attend.
The list can go on and on. So, can you be saved (be a Christian) and not be allowed to be a member, or fellowship, with a congregation?
I want to begin what could become a very long discussion with the question titled above. This question comes about with the problem many preterists run into - they may be denied fellowship in a congregation even though they are Christians - they may even be excommunicated. We can ask the following questions:
1) What is necessary to be saved?
2) What is necessary to be a member of a congregation?
3) What could you do to lose your salvation?
4) What could you be excommunicated for?
5) Do you have to believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God?
a) Which version of the Bible?
- KJV only? Septuigent or Masoretic O.T.?
b) Every word taken literal or figurative?
6) Must you believe in a literal 6 day creation and a literal Adam & Eve?
7) Must you believe in a universal flood?
8) Must you follow the ten commandments & The Law?
9) Must you believe in the Virgin Birth?
10) That Jesus Christ is the Messiah? Priestly & Kingly?
11) Must you believe Jesus Christ died on the cross and was resurrected physically the third day?
12) Must you believe and embrace one of the Church creeds?
13) Must you believe in present day tongues, supernatural miracles & present day prophecy?
14) Must you be a member of the "Body of Christ" and the local Church? Which Church?
15) Are there things you must believe and follow to be a member of your congregation, but are not required to be saved?
16) Who can take the Lord's supper? Can a person who is saved be denied participation in the Lord's supper.
18) Must you follow certain rules of worship? Instrumental or non-instrumental congregational singing?
19) Must you be "Born Again" & how?
20) Must you believe Jesus Christ is coming soon?
21) Must you believe in a literal Millenial Reign of Christ?
22) Must you believe in the rapture?
I could go on with this list for a very long time (what is a long time?). I bring these questions up for the following reasons:
1) When I ask people to study eschatology and in particular preterism I am often told they need not study the subject because it really isn't important.
2) My person experience with congregations:
a) As a teenager I was a member of the Evangelical Free Church in Englewood, Florida which said you are saved by "faith only" but had strict rules of membership in the congregation such as you could not drink alcohol; dance; play cards; go to movies etc. etc. etc. One Sunday a man came forward and asked to be baptized. He was told he must be voted on by the congregation for worthiness to be a member of the Church (because baptism was a requirement to be a member of the congregation - though not to be a Christian). They voted he could not be baptized and be a member of the congregation because he played a piano in a restaurant that also served wine. The man stopped attending the congregation and was later found dead in a pond. I left the congregation.
b) My mother was excommunicated from the Lutheran Church when she married my father and began attending Church with him that was not a Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod).
c) I knew a woman who was told not to come back to an American Lutheran Church because she did not have fancy clothing.
d) I know a man who was questioned by the Belgrade Church of Christ as to his belief about musical instruments in worship and because he saw nothing wrong with that and other things he was asked not to attend.
The list can go on and on. So, can you be saved (be a Christian) and not be allowed to be a member, or fellowship, with a congregation?
Brian Schwertley, Don Preston, and Beyond Creation Science
On Monday, Sept 29th I listened to a debate between Don Preston and Brian Schwertley. I'm biased, but Don Preston handedly won the debate. (not saying the debate winner is always the correct one) However, most of the debate on Brian Schwertley's side was limited to statements like, "That's a bizarre interpretation...ect." At the end of the debate Brian called Covenant Eschatology a Damnable Heresy and no one should sit down and have a meal with a full preterist, and they should be immediately excommunicated. I'm concerned about Brian Schwertley's heart, and whether he indeed is living out as a "new creation." Brian Schwertley also mentioned that full preterism denies the gospel of Jesus. The denial of a future fleshly resurrection of the saints does not deny Christ's work on the cross, in fact understanding a Spiritual resurrection makes Christ's death and resurrection totally complete! Christ came and destroyed the last enemy which is death! His conquering of death also gave the final blow to Satan.
Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Don Preston held his composure very well, as Brian Schwertley essentially damned Don to hell.
Critical Review by:
Brian Schwertley, ReformedOnline.com
from
http://beyondcreationscience.com/index.php?pr=Review_Schwertley_2008
(Editor's Note: Comments made during closing statement of formal debate with Don Preston. Full recording of this debate (dated 9-25-08) is available at CovenantRadio.com)
"Full preterism denies the biblical meaning of the fall. They believe that physical death is natural... We're talking not just about eschatology here. We're talking about the gospel -- the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I want you to know that Don Preston gave approval to a book that not only denies the fall, as biblically defined. Beyond Creation Science is a horrible book. It teaches that the earth is millions and millions of years old. This book also teaches that the flood was a local flood; it was not a universal flood. This book is nothing but a ... cover to cover full of terrible heresies and garbage. This is an extremely dangerous, deadly false teaching..."
Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Don Preston held his composure very well, as Brian Schwertley essentially damned Don to hell.
Critical Review by:
Brian Schwertley, ReformedOnline.com
from
http://beyondcreationscience.com/index.php?pr=Review_Schwertley_2008
(Editor's Note: Comments made during closing statement of formal debate with Don Preston. Full recording of this debate (dated 9-25-08) is available at CovenantRadio.com)
"Full preterism denies the biblical meaning of the fall. They believe that physical death is natural... We're talking not just about eschatology here. We're talking about the gospel -- the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I want you to know that Don Preston gave approval to a book that not only denies the fall, as biblically defined. Beyond Creation Science is a horrible book. It teaches that the earth is millions and millions of years old. This book also teaches that the flood was a local flood; it was not a universal flood. This book is nothing but a ... cover to cover full of terrible heresies and garbage. This is an extremely dangerous, deadly false teaching..."
I'm not a liberal, but something is different about Palin
I'm wondering what you guys think of Palin?
Presuppositional Spinach
It seems like this debate on the timing of apocalyptic events transcends all theological debates, do you know what I mean? I thoroughly enjoyed watching the discussion on miracles in the last couple of posts. What makes this discussion so fluid and effective to the entire learning process is that all of you guys have re-examined your apocalyptic presuppositions at one point or another in your lives and have come to the consensus that the preterist interpretation is truth. The modern popular idea that the 'end times' are now in the present or in the future for us is the basic presupposition that most people come back to when discussing even minor details of theology or politics or philosophy or whatever.
How do you address someone's presuppositions in a debate like this? It's like trying to tell someone that they have a piece of spinach stuck in their teeth but they won't believe you because they can't see it. Only when we look in the mirror for ourselves does the reality set in. I guess a big piece of spinach stuck in your teeth isn't that big of a deal when everybody else around you has the same thing going on. Its like (insert name of popular bloviating futurist evangelical leader here) says that, "It has been prophesied that scoffers and false prophets would come in the last days and try to tell us that dental floss was delivered 2000 years ago!," or, "Who do you think you are to tell me that I have spinach stuck in my teeth?! Don't you know who I am?!"
The dispensationalist is affected daily by their own presuppositions, just as we all are though. The question we have to ask ourselves daily, however, is what we believe absolute God-given Truth or teachings from fallible man?
The question arose recently of why are more and more youth falling away from Christianity? I have my own idea for the cause of this dilemma because I was challenged with this as a youth and a young collegiate. Centered with futurist presuppositions, I struggled to find enough reason to love God with my mind in a crazy world I didn't understand. Do you guys know what I am talking about? Too much emotional chitter-chatter, not enough evidence; too much authoritative down-talk, not enough reason; too much gossip and hypocrisy, not enough focusing on the Truth of Jesus' message; too much apathy to cultural/social issues, not enough change; too much on emphasis 'me' and my personal salvation, not enough on God's Kingdom glorification.
How do you address someone's presuppositions in a debate like this? It's like trying to tell someone that they have a piece of spinach stuck in their teeth but they won't believe you because they can't see it. Only when we look in the mirror for ourselves does the reality set in. I guess a big piece of spinach stuck in your teeth isn't that big of a deal when everybody else around you has the same thing going on. Its like (insert name of popular bloviating futurist evangelical leader here) says that, "It has been prophesied that scoffers and false prophets would come in the last days and try to tell us that dental floss was delivered 2000 years ago!," or, "Who do you think you are to tell me that I have spinach stuck in my teeth?! Don't you know who I am?!"
The dispensationalist is affected daily by their own presuppositions, just as we all are though. The question we have to ask ourselves daily, however, is what we believe absolute God-given Truth or teachings from fallible man?
The question arose recently of why are more and more youth falling away from Christianity? I have my own idea for the cause of this dilemma because I was challenged with this as a youth and a young collegiate. Centered with futurist presuppositions, I struggled to find enough reason to love God with my mind in a crazy world I didn't understand. Do you guys know what I am talking about? Too much emotional chitter-chatter, not enough evidence; too much authoritative down-talk, not enough reason; too much gossip and hypocrisy, not enough focusing on the Truth of Jesus' message; too much apathy to cultural/social issues, not enough change; too much on emphasis 'me' and my personal salvation, not enough on God's Kingdom glorification.
"THE DAYS GO BY AND EVERY VISION COMES TO NOTHING."
Following is a post I made to my www.preterist.typepad.com and feel it should also be read here.
Ezekiel said: "The word of the Lord came to me: 'Son of man, what is this proverb you have in the land of Israel: 'The days go by and every vision comes to nothing.'" (Ezekiel 12:22) The Lord said "Say this to them, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to put an end to this proverb, and they will no longer quote it in Israel. . . . The days are near when every fision will be fulfilled. For there will be no more false visions or flattering divinations among the people of Israel. But I the Lord will speak what I will, and it shall be fulfilled without delay. For in your days, you rebellious house, I will fulfill whatever I say, delcares the Sovereign Lord. The word of the Lord came to me: "Son of man, the house of Israel is saying, 'The vision he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies about the distant future. Therefore say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: None of my words will be delayed any longer; whatever I say will be fulfilled, declares the Sovereign Lord." (Ezekiel 12-21-28).
The Israelites felt safe about the prophecy of their destruction and the loss of their Temple with the Babylonians used as God's instrument of judgment. Re-read the words of this passage. What does it mean He will not delay concerning his word through the prophet - these were not things for the distant future! God does speak plainly and in a timely manner. If God says 'SOON" He means "Soon"! WE can demonstrate this in the prophecy of Daniel: "But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end." He was also told to seal up the visions of this prophecy because the time was "far off in the distant future." God was specific here - the prophecy of Daniel was far off - it was fulfilled about 400 years later (that is far off). In Revelation John was told: "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this boo, because the time is NEAR." (Revelation 22:10). Time does make a difference to God's prophecies. For more about false prophets see my Blog at Blogger.com under my name D.L. Pease on uncle Jessie's Blog called WILL NOT DELAY. Watch for more some time. I may be gone a while to Europe. Remember - Life is Good, David
Ezekiel said: "The word of the Lord came to me: 'Son of man, what is this proverb you have in the land of Israel: 'The days go by and every vision comes to nothing.'" (Ezekiel 12:22) The Lord said "Say this to them, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to put an end to this proverb, and they will no longer quote it in Israel. . . . The days are near when every fision will be fulfilled. For there will be no more false visions or flattering divinations among the people of Israel. But I the Lord will speak what I will, and it shall be fulfilled without delay. For in your days, you rebellious house, I will fulfill whatever I say, delcares the Sovereign Lord. The word of the Lord came to me: "Son of man, the house of Israel is saying, 'The vision he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies about the distant future. Therefore say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: None of my words will be delayed any longer; whatever I say will be fulfilled, declares the Sovereign Lord." (Ezekiel 12-21-28).
The Israelites felt safe about the prophecy of their destruction and the loss of their Temple with the Babylonians used as God's instrument of judgment. Re-read the words of this passage. What does it mean He will not delay concerning his word through the prophet - these were not things for the distant future! God does speak plainly and in a timely manner. If God says 'SOON" He means "Soon"! WE can demonstrate this in the prophecy of Daniel: "But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end." He was also told to seal up the visions of this prophecy because the time was "far off in the distant future." God was specific here - the prophecy of Daniel was far off - it was fulfilled about 400 years later (that is far off). In Revelation John was told: "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this boo, because the time is NEAR." (Revelation 22:10). Time does make a difference to God's prophecies. For more about false prophets see my Blog at Blogger.com under my name D.L. Pease on uncle Jessie's Blog called WILL NOT DELAY. Watch for more some time. I may be gone a while to Europe. Remember - Life is Good, David
"THOSE WHO PROPHESY OUT OF THEIR OWN IMAGINATIONS"
"God spoke to me - in French - and told me to tell you to give all your money to me - not to any of the other T.V. ministers." (Steve Martin) Surely you do not believe God actually spoke to Steve Martin (especially in French). You know Steve Martin is a comedian and was not serious - right? I hear many people say "God told me to . . ." and I don't believe them any more than I believe God spoke to Steve martin. Either those who say "God spoke to me and said . . ." are comedians, being sarcastic, deluded, having auditory hallucinations, deceived, deluded, insane, on drugs, or just simply liars.
As full preterists we believe that every prophecy was fulfilled in 70 a.d. If all prophecy was fulfilled there is no need for prophets today. Paul said: " . . . but where there are prophecies, they will cease . . ." (I Corinthians 13:8) This prophecy of Paul was fulfilled in 70 a.d. God does not speak to us today - except through the Word of God, which is the Bible. If this is not so then we can not argue with authority that Mohammad was not a prophet of God. We can not argue that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. We can not argue that the Mormons do not have prophets today. We can not argue that Perry Stone did not receive a vision and hear God tell him what is in store for the United States. Yet, I can say with full confidence that none of these people are valid prophets of God. They are all prophets of their own "imaginations." (Ezekiel 13:2)
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these LAST DAYS he has spoken to us by the Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe." (Hebrews 1:1 & 2) All the New Testament prophecies are from Jesus Christ. He told the apostles he would bring to their remembrance through the Holy Spirit all that he said and taught them. This is the "knowledge" the would "pass away" - it passed away with the death of the last apostle. There are no apostles today - despite what the Mormons say. The book of Hebrews tells us of the superiority of Christ over the prophets, angels, levitical priesthood etc.
Some, like Perry Stone, would say "prophecy did not decease in 70 a.d. because the Book of Revelation was given after 70 a.d." That is false, but I will leave that for another blog. All Scripture was completed before 70 a.d. Let me just say that if any Scripture was written after 70 a.d. it is very, very strange that there is no mention of the destruction of the Temple as having taken place.
I urge you to stop saying "God told me . . .", unless it is what God says in the Bible. If you hear a message from God outside of the Scriptures you are either on drugs that you need to discontinue, or you are deluded, - or, dare I say it - "YOU ARE LYING" just like Mohammad, Joseph Smith and Perry Stone."
In the "last days" God spoke to us through His Son. These are not the "last days" - they were from about 30 a.d. to 70 a.d. More later. In Christ, David
As full preterists we believe that every prophecy was fulfilled in 70 a.d. If all prophecy was fulfilled there is no need for prophets today. Paul said: " . . . but where there are prophecies, they will cease . . ." (I Corinthians 13:8) This prophecy of Paul was fulfilled in 70 a.d. God does not speak to us today - except through the Word of God, which is the Bible. If this is not so then we can not argue with authority that Mohammad was not a prophet of God. We can not argue that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. We can not argue that the Mormons do not have prophets today. We can not argue that Perry Stone did not receive a vision and hear God tell him what is in store for the United States. Yet, I can say with full confidence that none of these people are valid prophets of God. They are all prophets of their own "imaginations." (Ezekiel 13:2)
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these LAST DAYS he has spoken to us by the Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe." (Hebrews 1:1 & 2) All the New Testament prophecies are from Jesus Christ. He told the apostles he would bring to their remembrance through the Holy Spirit all that he said and taught them. This is the "knowledge" the would "pass away" - it passed away with the death of the last apostle. There are no apostles today - despite what the Mormons say. The book of Hebrews tells us of the superiority of Christ over the prophets, angels, levitical priesthood etc.
Some, like Perry Stone, would say "prophecy did not decease in 70 a.d. because the Book of Revelation was given after 70 a.d." That is false, but I will leave that for another blog. All Scripture was completed before 70 a.d. Let me just say that if any Scripture was written after 70 a.d. it is very, very strange that there is no mention of the destruction of the Temple as having taken place.
I urge you to stop saying "God told me . . .", unless it is what God says in the Bible. If you hear a message from God outside of the Scriptures you are either on drugs that you need to discontinue, or you are deluded, - or, dare I say it - "YOU ARE LYING" just like Mohammad, Joseph Smith and Perry Stone."
In the "last days" God spoke to us through His Son. These are not the "last days" - they were from about 30 a.d. to 70 a.d. More later. In Christ, David
Prophet Land
One of the fundamental problems of prophetic futurism is its inability to understand and appreciate the varied types of literature we find in Scripture. Actually, I think it is deeper than that. In my experience, most futurists have an anemic imagination in general. Their eyes glaze over when they read the prophets, automatically jumping to the conclusion that the prophet is saying something that he is really not saying at all. The problem is that those with such weak imaginations cannot possibly see the text in any other way. How do you reason with someone who can't see any possibility other than the one in their own atrophied mind?
I have come to the tentative conclusion that the problem may be cultural more than theological. We, as scientific moderns, don't have a lot of use for aesthetics other than more "practical" things such as advertising theory or marketing method. Aesthetics serve a cruel master we call "the bottom line." Our "aesthetic vision" is withered to the point that we can't see past the end of our nose, so to speak. Sure, there are few "artsy" types who spend big bucks for obscure paintings or historical works of art. Then you find out that a lot of these people are buying the stuff as an investment: it's dollars and cents to them. But the general population finds all this irrelevant to their normal life. Besides, they are out trying put bread on the table [note metaphor-can you count them all in this paragraph?] rather than cultivate an aesthetic sense to the glory of God.
We are also at a disadvantage as moderns who, generally speaking, are not forced to spend a lot of time with nature. We drive an automobile virtually everywhere we go rather than walking from one place to another which allows time to observe the natural rhythms in our surroundings. We live in the comfort of our climate-controlled houses and work places. We see weather reports that tell us what the weather will be like in the next day... or seven. We don't grow our own food or raise and butcher our own animals. Many people have never even been around agricultural animals in any close way so that they experience their nature and personalities.
Now what happens when the Bible, written to people who had intimate, experiential knowledge of the physical world and nature, is handed to urban modern Americans? Well, some pretty bad things. All of a sudden you get the Bible talking about atomic bombs, international politics (at least since the rise of the UN), geological formation, and the linguistic record of the world. Is it too hard to see that modern Christians have forced the Bible into their own image as scientific moderns?
The timing is ironic as I was thinking about these things. This week I ran across a superb article that is a great exercise in training the biblical imagination: an essential element to accurate biblical understanding. This article by Morrison Lee (from South Korea) is called "Prophet Land."
I think this article is worth your time. If you are interested, you can read it for yourself here:
http://www.beyondcreationscience.com/index.php?pr=Prophet_Land
Tim Martin
co-author Beyond Creation Science
www.beyondcreationscience.com
I have come to the tentative conclusion that the problem may be cultural more than theological. We, as scientific moderns, don't have a lot of use for aesthetics other than more "practical" things such as advertising theory or marketing method. Aesthetics serve a cruel master we call "the bottom line." Our "aesthetic vision" is withered to the point that we can't see past the end of our nose, so to speak. Sure, there are few "artsy" types who spend big bucks for obscure paintings or historical works of art. Then you find out that a lot of these people are buying the stuff as an investment: it's dollars and cents to them. But the general population finds all this irrelevant to their normal life. Besides, they are out trying put bread on the table [note metaphor-can you count them all in this paragraph?] rather than cultivate an aesthetic sense to the glory of God.
We are also at a disadvantage as moderns who, generally speaking, are not forced to spend a lot of time with nature. We drive an automobile virtually everywhere we go rather than walking from one place to another which allows time to observe the natural rhythms in our surroundings. We live in the comfort of our climate-controlled houses and work places. We see weather reports that tell us what the weather will be like in the next day... or seven. We don't grow our own food or raise and butcher our own animals. Many people have never even been around agricultural animals in any close way so that they experience their nature and personalities.
Now what happens when the Bible, written to people who had intimate, experiential knowledge of the physical world and nature, is handed to urban modern Americans? Well, some pretty bad things. All of a sudden you get the Bible talking about atomic bombs, international politics (at least since the rise of the UN), geological formation, and the linguistic record of the world. Is it too hard to see that modern Christians have forced the Bible into their own image as scientific moderns?
The timing is ironic as I was thinking about these things. This week I ran across a superb article that is a great exercise in training the biblical imagination: an essential element to accurate biblical understanding. This article by Morrison Lee (from South Korea) is called "Prophet Land."
I think this article is worth your time. If you are interested, you can read it for yourself here:
http://www.beyondcreationscience.com/index.php?pr=Prophet_Land
Tim Martin
co-author Beyond Creation Science
www.beyondcreationscience.com
I went to a funeral today...
The message was confusing...but I dearly miss the woman who died water skiing with her family. The pastor mentioned the passage: "The last enemy to be destroyed is death." 1 Cor 15:26 He went on to say someday there will be no physical death. In the next breath he quoted the passage: "We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him." Rom 6:9 Then he said, "Christ has conquered death."
To that I say, "Amen!"
Now what most Christians fail to put together is that Christ has destroyed the last enemy according to 1 Cor 15.
Thank God for Jesus' completed work on the Cross, that we may never die.
"...and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:26
Am I missing something?
To that I say, "Amen!"
Now what most Christians fail to put together is that Christ has destroyed the last enemy according to 1 Cor 15.
Thank God for Jesus' completed work on the Cross, that we may never die.
"...and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:26
Am I missing something?
Meet the next possible VP, Joe "I'm a Zionist" Biden
"There is this inextricable tie between culture, religion, ethnicity, that most people don't fully understand..."
Eatn' Mud-cakes with John Hagee
How did I ever get so fired up about all this preterism/futurism/Zionism/-ism/-ism/-ism talk? How come other guys my age are busy talking about girls and football and hunting and all sorts of other fun stuff and I am part of a little internet blog that just discusses eschatology and all sorts of –isms that most people have never even heard of? Don’t get me wrong, these are just a few of my other favorite topics to discuss, but I guess out of a sense of duty I feel obligated to try and share what I’ve learned in the past year with the general populace concerning theological issues. I may not be 100% right on everything but at least we are talking about these things, right?
Getting the ball rolling on the “Emerging Conversation” that we are having here is the hard part. Sometimes helping people become aware of what all these crazy –isms mean and why they are important is like trying to teach kindergarteners how to tie their shoes! The kindergartener at first could care less if their shoe is or isn’t tied because it doesn’t directly interfere with eating mud cakes, but as soon as they try chasing the puppy, they notice that there might be something that you as a loving parent need to teach them. Once people (sincere Christian men and women) see how these –isms are important to understand, we can really begin to enjoy and explore the Kingdom of God for what it is with peace in our hearts like the little kid that enjoys playing with the puppy with his shoe laces tied and not falling on his face with every other step. Unfortunately, it is only human nature that we fall on our face once or twice before we ask for help. Maybe the modern
Now, I don’t mean to sound conceited here but I am not trying to say that everyone that does not agree with me is like a little kindergartener that can’t tie their shoes. Like I said, I’m a young guy in my mid-twenties with interests like most guys my age and I have the proper respect for my elders with biblical training. What makes me different though is that I have enough humility to admit when I’m wrong so I can change to what is right and I tend to question authority more often now, rather than saying “yes” to whatever any pastor tells me like a little bobble-head toy in the pew. Let me demonstrate the ignorance of placing all your trust in an authoritative figure and not looking for the empirical truth.
I remember one time at a place I used to work, we were all sitting around drinking coffee and talking about politics and such like we usually do and I usually did most of the listening in these settings because I enjoyed the passionate rants of my co-workers. Somehow the subject got to the official story of what happened on September 11, 2001, and how there are all these “pinheads,” like Bill O’Reilly likes to put it, that don’t believe this official 911 story in it’s entirety. I gently cleared my throat and said that, “Well, maybe the ‘official story’ is what they want us to believe and that is far from what actually happened?” After that point, I was the local conspiracy nut to them. I then followed up with, “How do you know then that they are telling you the truth if you don’t ever question what you hear on FOX news? Isn’t that a little naïve to just simply believe what they tell you? Is Bill O’Reilly really looking out for you?” What he said next will stick in my mind forever. He paused for a second, clearly irritated with me by now, and growled, “Because I’m older and wiser than you, that’s why.”
I think this is the same kind of treatment that we get when we start discussing preterism, futurism, Zionism, dispensationalism, millennialism, and all the other –isms out there with our fellow church goers. This is maybe why I am so disheartened with the way things are going today in modern Christianity. When I first started questioning things, I found a few discrepancies with what I was taught in Sunday school by my sincere Christian teachers. Then the more I looked into it, the more I discovered that the whole plain literal hermeneutic that our churches use to interpret the beginning and the end of the bible was wrong. I trusted my elders completely... and I was wrong. Ei carumba!!!
Sometimes I get frustrated and this whole eschatology debate grows tedious to me. Sometimes it seems next to impossible to tell someone that throughout their whole life, they have been completely wrong about Genesis and Revelation. How do you approach this? Sometimes it might be easier to sit back and watch the dispensationalist fall flat on his face before we tell him his shoes are untied. The more I study and learn, the heavier the burden becomes. When I start getting frustrated, I am reminded of a Socrates quote, “A wise man dissatisfied is better than a fool satisfied.” The wise man is the competent judge that finds that the more he seeks knowledge, the more he realizes what he doesn’t know, whereas the fool is only familiar with the simpler aspects of life. Jesus actually said something similar about how we're suppose to love him.
Jesus told us in Mark 12:30 to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and all your mind and with all your strength.” Maybe the most difficult part to this commandment is to love him with all our minds. Knowing what I know now, I realize that I was not loving with all of my mind before I understood what preterism was. My mind was trapped with pride and ignorance; behold the power of a paradigm.
So, don’t be a fool, y’all. You’ll be sitting in the dirt with your shoes untied eating mud cakes with John Hagee and Hal Lindsey, interpreting the bible with yesterday’s newspaper next to it, wondering if the rapture is going to happen soon--because man, it’d sure be nice to get out of those muddy clothes. Praise the Lord, eh?
Stephen Covey to speak at MSU
One of Time magazine's 25-most influential Americans and an author who has sold more than 20 million copies of his books will speak to Montana State University about how they can tap their greatness at MSU's 2008 Freshman Convocation set for 7:30 p.m. Tuesday, Sept. 2, at Brick Breeden Fieldhouse.
Stephen R. Covey will discuss his landmark book, "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change." Incoming MSU freshmen read the book over the summer.
The convocation, a celebration for MSU's incoming freshmen, is free and open to non-freshmen who have obtained tickets in advance from MSU's Ask Us Desk or Borders Books.
Covey's "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, has sold 15 million copies and won a number of honors, including being the top-selling audio in history, the most influential business book in the 20th century and the best-selling hardcover book on family. In addition to being a prolific author and a popular speaker, Covey is co-founder and vice chairman of FranklinCovey, the leading global professional services firm with offices in 123 countries and the recipient of the International Entrepreneur of the Year Award.
"I believe this book has value for all college-bound students in any area of study," said Greg Young, MSU's vice provost for undergraduate education. "I have been impressed by how positively my students have reacted to the book when I used it in a couple of classes over the past few years."
Young said while Covey's talk is free and open to the public, the convocation, which is MSU's second, is primarily a celebration for incoming students. Tickets for non-freshmen are available at MSU's Ask Us Information Center and at Borders, with a limit of 4 tickets per person.
Last year's inaugural freshmen convocation featured Bozeman resident Greg Mortenson, co-author of the hugely popular "Three Cups of Tea," and the founder of the Central Asia Institute that has built schools in remote areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan.
The MSU Leadership Institute of ASMSU and the MSU Alumni Association have provided additional sponsorship for the event. For more information, go to http://www.montana.edu/convocation/
Stephen R. Covey will discuss his landmark book, "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change." Incoming MSU freshmen read the book over the summer.
The convocation, a celebration for MSU's incoming freshmen, is free and open to non-freshmen who have obtained tickets in advance from MSU's Ask Us Desk or Borders Books.
Covey's "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, has sold 15 million copies and won a number of honors, including being the top-selling audio in history, the most influential business book in the 20th century and the best-selling hardcover book on family. In addition to being a prolific author and a popular speaker, Covey is co-founder and vice chairman of FranklinCovey, the leading global professional services firm with offices in 123 countries and the recipient of the International Entrepreneur of the Year Award.
"I believe this book has value for all college-bound students in any area of study," said Greg Young, MSU's vice provost for undergraduate education. "I have been impressed by how positively my students have reacted to the book when I used it in a couple of classes over the past few years."
Young said while Covey's talk is free and open to the public, the convocation, which is MSU's second, is primarily a celebration for incoming students. Tickets for non-freshmen are available at MSU's Ask Us Information Center and at Borders, with a limit of 4 tickets per person.
Last year's inaugural freshmen convocation featured Bozeman resident Greg Mortenson, co-author of the hugely popular "Three Cups of Tea," and the founder of the Central Asia Institute that has built schools in remote areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan.
The MSU Leadership Institute of ASMSU and the MSU Alumni Association have provided additional sponsorship for the event. For more information, go to http://www.montana.edu/convocation/
Pre-trib Ignorance or Post-trib Paranoia?
Here at the “Will Not Delay” Blog, we tend to pick on the on the pre-trib rapture folks a bit. All in good humor, right? It’s not that we have anything personal against people that believe this doctrine, let’s face it—they had it coming to them!!! It is the easiest doctrine to poke holes in and it probably is the most popular doctrine among American Christians. Once you understand how Zionism has intended to brainwash this large group of people using this manner of interpretation of scripture so they have millions of loyal subjects for their cause, you can easily see my contention.
Nevertheless, my theological quest for truth has taken me down many other paths, even though it started in the pre-tribulation, pre-millennial form of dispensationalism, (Read my first post, “Quest for Truth in Eschatology Led Me to Preterism”) I also considered myself a post-trib at one time. The post-trib person is a whole different ball o wax, maybe just a little scarier when you get one cornered in a dark alley.
Nevertheless, my theological quest for truth has taken me down many other paths, even though it started in the pre-tribulation, pre-millennial form of dispensationalism, (Read my first post, “Quest for Truth in Eschatology Led Me to Preterism”) I also considered myself a post-trib at one time. The post-trib person is a whole different ball o wax, maybe just a little scarier when you get one cornered in a dark alley.
This is an interesting study in psychology, these two very different kinds of Christians are still very similar in they way they view the future. On one hand, you have the group that expects to be vaporized in the rapture before Revelation gets started, and then you have the other group that is a little more in tune with their survival instincts, ready to endure till the end, but equally delusional.
The pre-trib individual is much more evangelistic, much more eager to share their faith and spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. I give much credit to them for this, but they feel this is their only primary duty, to bring as many souls to Christ before the rapture. However when it comes right down to it, the pre-trib person usually clams up or becomes “foaming at the mouth mad” when they start talking about Young Earth Creation vs. Evolution to a different point of view. When a pre-trib discusses this subject with an atheist, someone usually ends up unhappily stomping out of the room. These two opposing sides keep butting heads and nobody seems to win!(This is another reason why Preterism appeals more to my intellect, check out Beyond Creation Science)
On the other hand, the post-trib individual is more content with simply taking care of themselves; the time for evangelization has now turned into a time for paranoia and preparation. The post-trib individuals are usually discontent with the pre-trib church that they started at, because they are tired of arguing or they feel arguing is virtually pointless. Therefore, they tend to stick to themselves in small groups and focus on protecting their loved ones in the coming apocalyptic bloodbath.
Now, as a truth-seeking Preterist, I have found that both of these groups hate discussing eschatology with me. This brings me into discussion on what these two groups have in common in their forms of futurism. In my difficulty in discussing these matters with these two peoples, I have found that it is usually the individual’s inability to explore new ideas that contradict their own that hinders them. That is the primary reason, and the other reason is based in their futurism, where they are content with simply waiting on the apocalypse and ignoring dissenting opinions. I’d like to quote Don K. Preston for a bit:
“At the end of the book of Revelation, John is told six times that fulfillment is at hand and that Christ was coming soon. In fact, the fulfillment of the prophecy was so near, so close, that John ws told to say: “Let the wicked remain wicked, let the filthy remain filthy!” (Rev. 22:11) Time for repentance was gone! Judgment was near, so near, that the opportunity for repentance was all but lost!
This statement of urgency is sandwiched between the command for John not to seal the Apocalypse because the time was so near, and Jesus’ statement that he was coming “quickly.” The command not to seal the book is in direct contrast to Daniel, whose vision Revelation repeats, who was told to seal the book because its fulfillment was not near (Daniel 12:4). This temporal contrast must be taken seriously, just as we must honor Jesus’ statement that he was coming quickly. This promise is based on Jesus’ promise from Matthew 16:27 where Jesus said he was coming in judgment in the lifetime of that first century audience.
If the judgment of Revelation, and that includes Armageddon, has not occurred, then the modern church must continue to proclaim, “Let the wicked remain wicked, let the filthy remain filthy!” So, if you do not believe that the modern church should be proclaiming “Let the wicked remain wicked,” you must believe that Armageddon is past!”
You see, both the pre-trib and the post-trib person with their futurism are content with ignoring problems rather than fixing them. An intellectual person is obligated to learn how something can or can’t be right before they say, “that can’t be right.” When confronted with such powerful statements like Don K. Preston’s here, a person is forced to think a little bit. Friends, I am not going to be like Jack Nicholson’s character in that one movie (?) where he says, “You want the TRUTH? You can’t handle the truth!” Sorry, I’m going to take truth and make you eat it. Have a nice day ;)
The Antidote to Zionism
This is something that has been weighing heavily on my mind in recent days. In recent world events such as the
Oooh, that was a very controversial statement. The notion that there are people governing our country that do not have the American people’s best interest in mind is nothing new. But what does
Why are the Neo-cons so blood-thirsty? Why are we being told in the news that
The answer to all these questions is an idea that pervades to the very core of our culture, it taints the theology in our American churches and it possesses the minds of a whole electorate and the hearts of our children--that idea is called Zionism. The idea that the current State of Israel is fulfillment of biblical prophecy and that the
This theology is called Christian Zionism where dispensational premillennial churches in
Mega-churches in
The only solution to this problematic theology that causes world problems is if there is revolution within the church that starts reading prophetic scriptures like Mathew 24 and Revelation as real events that were going to happen to real people at a very soon time after they were written.
You see, placing these passages in the future takes the writing out of it's historical context and removes the judgment from the Jews that crucified Jesus and the prophetic significance of the falling of
This is why it is so important for Christians everywhere to take a new look at their bibles, and discover the only interpretive method that makes sense. Preterism is the only antidote for Zionism. If Christians in
Any thoughts, brother David? Can one be a Preterist and a Zionist at the same time?
Another great video for your viewing pleasure:
Seven Habits of Highly Effective "Christians"
I think every person should read Stephen Covey’s “Seven Habits of Highly Effective People” before reading the bible or becoming devout Christians (or devout anything for that matter!). I read this book in college for a communications class and I’ll admit… I think it changed my life! I’d be willing to bet that we’d have more preterists in our midst if Christians started taking up these seven “Berean” habits. How about some discussion on what these seven habits mean to our preterist perspective or to how we got here? Here is a summary from Wikipedia on these habits (my thoughts italicized):
- Be Proactive. Here, Covey emphasizes the original sense of the term "proactive" as coined by Victor Frankl. You can either be proactive or reactive when it comes to how you respond to certain things. When you are reactive, you blame other people and circumstances for obstacles or problems. Being proactive means taking responsibility for every aspect of your life. Initiative and taking action will then follow. Covey also shows how man is different from other animals in that he has self-consciousness. He has the ability to detach himself and observe his own self; think about his thoughts. He goes on to say how this attribute enables him: It gives him the power not to be affected by his circumstances. Covey talks about stimulus and response. Between stimulus and response, we have the power of free will to choose our response. (Is the rapture crowd (reactive) maybe blaming Adam for all the chaos in the world today???)
- Begin with the End In Mind. This chapter is about setting long-term goals based on "true north" principles. Covey recommends formulating a "personal vision statement" to document one's perception of one's own vision in life. He sees visualization as an important tool to develop this. He also deals with organizational vision statements, which he claims to be more effective if developed and supported by all members of an organization rather than prescribed. (Did God begin with the end in mind? YES HE DID! Tim Martin’s new book, “Beyond Creation Science” helps clarify this!!!)
- Put First Things First. Here, Covey describes a framework for prioritizing work that is aimed at short-term goals, at the expense of tasks that appear not to be urgent, but are in fact very important. Delegation is presented as an important part of time management. Successful delegation, according to Covey, focuses on results and benchmarks that are to be agreed upon in advance, rather than prescribed as detailed work plans. (Should discovering truth about bible prophecy come first? If we have been wrong about something for our whole lives, shouldn’t we focus our efforts on fixing that problem first before we move on to other aspects of Christian life?)
- Think Win/Win describes an attitude whereby mutually beneficial solutions are sought that satisfy the needs of oneself, or, in the case of a conflict, both parties involved. (Preterism is definitely Win/Win, is it not?)
- Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood. Covey warns that giving out advice before having empathetically understood a person and their situation will likely result in rejection of that advice. Thoroughly reading out your own autobiography will decrease the chance of establishing a working communication. (This is the true Berean protocol for understanding truth. How many people at your local mega-church understand preterism? Do you understand preterism?)
- Synergize describes a way of working in teams. Apply effective problem solving. Apply collaborative decision making. Value differences. Build on divergent strengths. Leverage creative collaboration. Embrace and leverage innovation. It is put forth that when synergy is pursued as a habit, the result of the teamwork will exceed the sum of what each of the members could have achieved on their own. “The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.” (Can anyone say, “Emerging or
- Sharpen the saw focuses on balanced self-satisfaction: Regain what Covey calls "production capability" by engaging in carefully selected recreational activities. (Hey, Praise the Lord everyone! I’m sharpening my saw by taking the day off from work!!! Yeeehaw!)
Any thoughts? I think this is awesome... I could write a whole new book that uses these habits to lead a Berean down the pathway to preterism!!!
CHRISTIAN DEBATE
". . . always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness . . . " I Peter 3:15 NKJV One way to give a "defense" or "answer" is through debate. The Berean Christians ". . . were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed . . ." Acts 17:11 Preterists really believe what they teach and therefore are excited to share with all the joy they have from knowing that Christ's promise of "comings SOON" was fulfilled 'SOON'. I recently listened to Perry Stone on a message he entitled 'LYING ABOUT THE RAPTURE: THE PRETERIST THEORY". He rejects any debate with preterists because he says it is "casting your pearls before the swine." I have found that not only do those who oppose preterism refuse to debate, but they even refuse to study the Scriptures to see if these things are true. I have never seen or heard a debate on preterism that was not over-whelmingly won by the preterist debaters, especially Brother Don Preston's debates. We are convinced that the preterist view of eschatology is correct and therefore can not keep silent - we must press those that oppose the preterist teaching to debate in a Christian manner with meekness in order to come to a knowledge of the truth. If anti-preterist teachers think I am following a heretical teachings they have a responsibility to debate me to save me from error. What say you?
Post Modern thinking in Bozeman, MT
A group of us have formed an informal meeting called "TrailBlazer Ministries." "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the 'trailblazer' and perfecter of our faith..." Hebrews 12:2 We will discuss a variety of topics and play a variety of worship music. Contact me at cellist@jesseahmann.com for more information.
Is is really necessary to be a full-preterist?
My question is: as long as a Christian takes a positive view of this world, what's the big deal. After long Theological debates, does it really edify your soul?
Preterism! I Can' Belive It!
I really get a kick out of Todd Strandberg. I recently came across an essay on his site, RaptureReady.com, about how he can’t believe preterism: http://www.raptureready.com/rr-preterism.html
I hope you all enjoy this essay as much as I did. His words are bolded.
Preterism! I Can’t Believe It!
By Todd Strandberg
One of my key reasons for believing in the pre-tribulation rapture is the fact all other views are always trying to undermine pre-tribulationism. Up until now, the most vocal group of opponents has been the post-trib and pre-wrath folks. I'm amazed to find preterism now on the attack, gaining ground by mostly converting pre-tribbers.
First of all, notice the title of his essay, I CAN’T Believe It. Todd, since when does what you think even matter to what is true? You are your own worst enemy to understanding the truth.
What is preterism? This theory argues that all Bible prophecy has been fulfilled; it states that nothing remains on the prophetic calendar. According to preterism, events like the rise of the Antichrist, the tribulation, the rapture, and the Day of the Lord all took place around 70 AD, the year the Romans invaded
Very good, Todd, now that you understand the basics of preterism, we can begin to discuss and ask questions about HOW this can be true instead of ignorantly saying how this CAN’T be true.
I just cannot understand how anyone can follow a preterist line of thinking in light of current world events. As in many cases, pride is one of the most common reasons people begin following doctrinal error. They believe that they are part of a special group that has discovered a hidden truth. Never mind the fact that millions of people have joined them in supporting their folly.
Aww shucks, Todd! There you go again! You used the phrase, “I just cannot understand!” Did anyone catch what he says in his next sentence? He says, “PRIDE is one of the most common reasons people begin following doctrinal error.” Now, where does pride come from? Self? What personal pronoun did he just use in the previous sentence? Does anyone else see the irony in this?
Up until now, I've largely been ignoring preterism because it seemed equivalent to the Flat Earth Society. Well, I can't stand by and watch error run free, so it looks like I'm going to have to add preterism to the list of erroneous rapture views that I need to actively refute.
The heart of this error is based on Jesus' statement that "this generation shall not pass, till all things be fulfilled" (Mat 24:34). It seems easy enough to claim Jesus was speaking about a first-century generation; however, logic ends there when one contemplates the fulfillment of all Bible prophecy.
Logic only ends there for you because your paradigm kills it, Todd. Preterists know how to examine themselves for paradigms, and that is how many of them, including myself, have come to this view.
In order to make 70 AD the magic year, we would have to delete dozens of prophecies that were never fulfilled. When was the Gospel preached to all the nations? When was the Mark of the Beast implemented? What about
We will never understand the future unless we first understand the past. The problem with Todd’s perspective is that he is not interpreting the scripture the way that the first century Christians understood it.
The questions are endless. Why did we have the rebirth of
A very, very, most excellent question, Mr. Strandberg. What if the rebirth of
After being so strict in their interpretation of Matthew 24:34, preterists then run roughshod over many clear statements of Scripture. They say that although the "resurrection" happened in 70 AD, the bodies of Christians were left in the grave.
Did Jesus come to conquer physical death or spiritual death? Read the previous post in this blog with Don Preston’s comments about the resurrection.
Preterists take the dangerous step of spiritualizing all passages of Scripture that relate to the nation of Israel, and claim that these refer to the church, the "New
I don’t understand why this is so dangerous… dangerous to you maybe because it would force you to make a painful paradigm shift?
Preterism produces some bizarre explanations for why the world is still experiencing suffering and calamity. One explanation I ran across cited God's need for population control as the reason for mankind's suffering. Here is what one preterist author wrote:
"I believe that people are born and people die. Kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall. God is the providential population controller. He brings famine, disease, natural catastrophes, wars and tumults. One-third of the population of
Preterism provides a greater framing story for why the world is still experiencing suffering and calamity. The problem with Todd’s perspective is that he is so caught up in the physical life and death, he fails to realize that Jesus came to conquer spiritual death and not physical death. Life feeds off of life and there would be no physical life if there were not physical death. People die because that is the nature of Ecology. Ironically, Todd is still as confused as the Jews were in John Chapter 6. Jesus said in verse 51, “I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." Preterism confirms and validates Jesus’ statement because we understand the difference between physical and spiritual life. I am sure that Todd realizes that he possesses eternal life for believing Jesus died for his sins, but he fails to realize that his own doctrine contradicts itself.
Don K Preston's answer
Don K Preston,
Thank you for your continual defense of Biblical truth. I have questions
on the resurrection. (big surprise) Maybe you've answered these questions
in other articles or books. So maybe you could point me in the right
direction. David Pease, Tim Martin, myself, and many others want to get
you out to Montana one of these days. Hope to meet you soon.
My ongoing discussions with my PCA pastor about the resurrection have
trapped me. His arguments are shown in (). I can always point to other
verses stating my case for a spiritual only resurrection, but he chooses
these:
1.) Philippians 3:21 (Why does Paul use "Body" in reference to humble state
and "Body" later referring to the glory of Jesus if this is purely
spiritual?)
Response:
A.) The question is the identity of the "body" in the text, or so it seems
to me. It is normally assumed that Paul was speaking of a human body. I
rather take it as the body of Christ that was being transformed from glory
to glory.
B.) Note that in the early part of the chapter, Paul is discussing the
contrast between the two covenant worlds. He talks about physical
circumcision and spiritual circumcision. He has a true seed and a false. The
discussion in V. 21 cannot be divorced from this context of contrast of the
two worlds.
C.) Note that Paul said that it was his earnest hope to attain to the
resurrection. Now, if this is a purely physical thing, and, as is normally
held, every person who has ever lived is going to be raised, how in the
world would / could Paul say that it was his hope to attain to it?
D.) Note also that Paul emphatically declares that the resurrection was in
the process already! Note his statements that it was his desire to attain to
the resurrection. He then said he had not already attained, but, "to the
degree that we have already attained, let us walk by this..." Note that "to
the degree that we have already attained" ! Many commentators through the
years have observed that Paul was or seemed to be, saying that the
resurrection had already begun, but of course, since they had a certain
concept of the resurrection, they rejected that idea-- and Paul's words!
E.) Note that Paul uses the singular "body". He does not say, Who will
change our vile bodies." Now, the Greek does not demand a plural here, but,
the use of the singular, as in Romans 8:23, is surely not coincidental.
F.) Notice also Paul's reference to the "vile body." Did Paul actually
believe that the human body is vile? If so, then he must have considered
Jesus' human body in that same light! I have a tough time thinking or
believing that Paul viewed the human body as vile. However, in the light of
the earlier discussion, of the nature of the Old Covenant, in contrast to
the New, that becomes another story altogether!
G.) Finally, notice that Paul affirms that the resurrection and
transformation of the body was at hand, in 4:5. This cannot be overlooked!
2.)1 Cor 6:14 (Since this passage is in the context of defiling the physical
body, shouldn't we assume v14 is referring to the literal flesh?)
Response: It seems to me that we often overlook the fact that the
resurrection is a multi-faceted thing. The resurrection was not simply being
raised out of the body of sin death covenantally, but, being raised in glory
to live lives of righteousness! Note that in Romans 13:11, Paul told the
Romans that the Day was near, and they were to walk in holiness "as in the
Day." And, here is where it gets interesting. He told them that it was high
time for them to be raised out of sleep! (The resurrection was at hand, in
other words). The point is, that their raising was not of a human corpse,
but, a raising to a higher, more holy, more glorious kind of life,
consistent with the nature of the Day. This is an area of Covenant
Eschatology that is admittedly not explored near enough.
3.) 2 Cor 4:14 (example of the body following the Head in like manner)
Response: I will
not spend a lot of time on this, but simply observe that there is a
corporate concept that is present that cannot be ignored. Take careful
note of the pronouns! They are all plural, they are collectives! Also,
note that there was a dying and coming to life in the text that simply
cannot be taken in a physical body reference (see v. 10-11, where Paul
said that "we are dying, you are living"! Paul's "we" is the Jews and the
Old Covenant that is in the direct context of chapter 3ff, and the "you"
are the Gentiles coming into life through the death of that Old Covenant
world.
4.) Rom 8:18-25 (if we are still suffering, we are still awaiting a future
glory)
Response: We cannot ignore the audience relevance of this text! Paul was not
speaking of everyday, human suffering. He was addressing Christians
suffering for their faith! For a person to ignore this context is really
just bad exegesis.
Also, note that Paul says "the sufferings of this present time." That was
Paul's time, not your's and mine.
There are three words in the text that defy a long delayed future
application:
mello-- The Glory that is about to be revealed in us
Apekdekomai-- eagerly await
Earnest Expectation-- apokaradokeo-- to look with neck outstretched.
These are three very strong words of imminence and urgency. To ignore them
is not solid exegesis. They cannot be ignored.
Furthermore, the creation of the text is Old Covenant Israel, representative
of man under sin. It is not rocks, trees, mosquitoes, etc.! :-) The
prophetic background of the text is Isaiah 26:16f, where Israel labored as a
woman in labor, to bring forth righteousness and failed. But, God promised
the resurrection from that futility!
5.) Gen 3:17-20 (Aren't at least some of the curse passages physical? How did
they get resolved in 70ad?)
Response: Personally, I just don't see the material creation as cursed! When
you consider the following, it presents a problem-- or at least to me.
Psalms 19 says that the creation testifies of God, in a wonderful manner.
See also Romans 1, and a host of other passages that tell us that nature
testifies of God, of His nature and attributes.
Well, if the creation is so cursed, what does that say of the testimony of
nature about God?
To me, this is just a serious problem, in saying that it is the material
creation that is under the curse. It was man, alienated from God that was
under the curse, not the trees, rocks and mosquitoes!
Well, I will close, as it is getting going home time, and I am bushed. I
hope these few thoughts are helpful, and provoke further study.
For His Truth, and in His Grace,
Don K. Preston
Thank you for your continual defense of Biblical truth. I have questions
on the resurrection. (big surprise) Maybe you've answered these questions
in other articles or books. So maybe you could point me in the right
direction. David Pease, Tim Martin, myself, and many others want to get
you out to Montana one of these days. Hope to meet you soon.
My ongoing discussions with my PCA pastor about the resurrection have
trapped me. His arguments are shown in (). I can always point to other
verses stating my case for a spiritual only resurrection, but he chooses
these:
1.) Philippians 3:21 (Why does Paul use "Body" in reference to humble state
and "Body" later referring to the glory of Jesus if this is purely
spiritual?)
Response:
A.) The question is the identity of the "body" in the text, or so it seems
to me. It is normally assumed that Paul was speaking of a human body. I
rather take it as the body of Christ that was being transformed from glory
to glory.
B.) Note that in the early part of the chapter, Paul is discussing the
contrast between the two covenant worlds. He talks about physical
circumcision and spiritual circumcision. He has a true seed and a false. The
discussion in V. 21 cannot be divorced from this context of contrast of the
two worlds.
C.) Note that Paul said that it was his earnest hope to attain to the
resurrection. Now, if this is a purely physical thing, and, as is normally
held, every person who has ever lived is going to be raised, how in the
world would / could Paul say that it was his hope to attain to it?
D.) Note also that Paul emphatically declares that the resurrection was in
the process already! Note his statements that it was his desire to attain to
the resurrection. He then said he had not already attained, but, "to the
degree that we have already attained, let us walk by this..." Note that "to
the degree that we have already attained" ! Many commentators through the
years have observed that Paul was or seemed to be, saying that the
resurrection had already begun, but of course, since they had a certain
concept of the resurrection, they rejected that idea-- and Paul's words!
E.) Note that Paul uses the singular "body". He does not say, Who will
change our vile bodies." Now, the Greek does not demand a plural here, but,
the use of the singular, as in Romans 8:23, is surely not coincidental.
F.) Notice also Paul's reference to the "vile body." Did Paul actually
believe that the human body is vile? If so, then he must have considered
Jesus' human body in that same light! I have a tough time thinking or
believing that Paul viewed the human body as vile. However, in the light of
the earlier discussion, of the nature of the Old Covenant, in contrast to
the New, that becomes another story altogether!
G.) Finally, notice that Paul affirms that the resurrection and
transformation of the body was at hand, in 4:5. This cannot be overlooked!
2.)1 Cor 6:14 (Since this passage is in the context of defiling the physical
body, shouldn't we assume v14 is referring to the literal flesh?)
Response: It seems to me that we often overlook the fact that the
resurrection is a multi-faceted thing. The resurrection was not simply being
raised out of the body of sin death covenantally, but, being raised in glory
to live lives of righteousness! Note that in Romans 13:11, Paul told the
Romans that the Day was near, and they were to walk in holiness "as in the
Day." And, here is where it gets interesting. He told them that it was high
time for them to be raised out of sleep! (The resurrection was at hand, in
other words). The point is, that their raising was not of a human corpse,
but, a raising to a higher, more holy, more glorious kind of life,
consistent with the nature of the Day. This is an area of Covenant
Eschatology that is admittedly not explored near enough.
3.) 2 Cor 4:14 (example of the body following the Head in like manner)
Response: I will
not spend a lot of time on this, but simply observe that there is a
corporate concept that is present that cannot be ignored. Take careful
note of the pronouns! They are all plural, they are collectives! Also,
note that there was a dying and coming to life in the text that simply
cannot be taken in a physical body reference (see v. 10-11, where Paul
said that "we are dying, you are living"! Paul's "we" is the Jews and the
Old Covenant that is in the direct context of chapter 3ff, and the "you"
are the Gentiles coming into life through the death of that Old Covenant
world.
4.) Rom 8:18-25 (if we are still suffering, we are still awaiting a future
glory)
Response: We cannot ignore the audience relevance of this text! Paul was not
speaking of everyday, human suffering. He was addressing Christians
suffering for their faith! For a person to ignore this context is really
just bad exegesis.
Also, note that Paul says "the sufferings of this present time." That was
Paul's time, not your's and mine.
There are three words in the text that defy a long delayed future
application:
mello-- The Glory that is about to be revealed in us
Apekdekomai-- eagerly await
Earnest Expectation-- apokaradokeo-- to look with neck outstretched.
These are three very strong words of imminence and urgency. To ignore them
is not solid exegesis. They cannot be ignored.
Furthermore, the creation of the text is Old Covenant Israel, representative
of man under sin. It is not rocks, trees, mosquitoes, etc.! :-) The
prophetic background of the text is Isaiah 26:16f, where Israel labored as a
woman in labor, to bring forth righteousness and failed. But, God promised
the resurrection from that futility!
5.) Gen 3:17-20 (Aren't at least some of the curse passages physical? How did
they get resolved in 70ad?)
Response: Personally, I just don't see the material creation as cursed! When
you consider the following, it presents a problem-- or at least to me.
Psalms 19 says that the creation testifies of God, in a wonderful manner.
See also Romans 1, and a host of other passages that tell us that nature
testifies of God, of His nature and attributes.
Well, if the creation is so cursed, what does that say of the testimony of
nature about God?
To me, this is just a serious problem, in saying that it is the material
creation that is under the curse. It was man, alienated from God that was
under the curse, not the trees, rocks and mosquitoes!
Well, I will close, as it is getting going home time, and I am bushed. I
hope these few thoughts are helpful, and provoke further study.
For His Truth, and in His Grace,
Don K. Preston
Quest for Truth in Eschatology Led Me to Preterism
This is kind of a long response that I recently wrote to a friend of mine. She knew that I was looking into preparing for the upcoming economic downturn and wanted to know what she could do to better prepare herself for “the END” as she put it. I feel it sums up how I came to learn about preterism:
“I like the subject line of your email.... this is how I was trained to think at one time from my theological presuppositions until I started asking some difficult questions that eventually led me on a quest for what I call "empirical truth." What I learned on my quest for truth put me through a roller coaster of ups and downs of paranoia about preparing for 'the end' and eventually led me to an optimistic outlook for the future and peace of mind. What we believe about the future determines how we live in the present. In my case, it was tied to theology.
I'm sorry to have to bore you with this whole discourse but I feel I must give you the whole story so you know exactly where I stand because the subject line of your email leads me to believe you might be caught up in the same 'end times' paradigm that I was in not too long ago.
As you know, I came from a churchy background. I was raised to believe that the world was going to get worse and worse and worse until eventually God would return to 'rapture' his remaining believers to let Satan have his way on the earth for a literal seven year 'great tribulation' culminating in the battle of Armageddon and then the final judgment as the stars fall from the heavens and earth is destroyed with fire. This scenario may sound familiar to you.
This mindset led me to believe that there was nothing that I could do about the current state of the world or the chaos that it involves. Things were just going to have to get worse, and that was seemingly a 'good' thing because that meant that the rapture was getting nearer. This paradigm led me to believe that I shouldn't have to prepare for hard times because God will soon return for his faithful.
This was all great, until someone told me that the rapture was going to be a 'post-trib' (post-tribulation, or after the great tribulation Revelation speaks about) rapture instead of a pre-trib rapture. I was trained in thought from some of my classes at MSU to first ask HOW something can or can not be true before you first say THAT CAN'T be true when you hear something new that challenges your current presuppositions. If you immediately say THAT CAN'T be true, then you unknowingly expose your personal paradigm and your ability to think open-mindedly, thus defeating yourself in your personal 'quest for truth'. So, I asked HOW can that be true and I went and did the research. I looked and looked and looked in the bible and used many different references and even read every single transcript from every sermon my pastor did on the book of Revelation. I could not find ANY solid evidence for a pre-trib rapture. Therefore, I evolved into the post-trib mindset and knew that the eventual 'great tribulation' was directly approaching and I had to try to survive.
This is when I started freaking out about everything that I read in the news and about the economy. I was in contact with a group of other 'post-tribbers' in the area and they were seriously stockpiling supplies in a fort in the mountains for 7 years. This state of paranoia ensued until someone told me that the battle of Armageddon already happened in the first century, in A.D. 70. You already know my protocol for when I hear something new… I felt this was important to know the truth about, so of course, I looked into it.
Let me just say from here on out, I believe that I have found truth. I still see what is happening in the economy but now I see why it is happening and who is doing it. I also see what their motivation is. It all comes back to what happened in the first century, this is event is important.
After understanding this, I know that we will of course be enduring some hard times financially and you should do whatever you can do to prepare. But this is the key: DON'T FREAK OUT because its NOT the end of the world as some preachers may say... they're wrong. We will get through this and there will be good times yet in the future, maybe not in the context that we enjoy good times today, but retain your optimism. To directly answer your question about what I have done to get myself better prepared? Not much actually... just trying to survive, staying happy, and working at building my business into a multi-million dollar corporation. That's about it. I am looking into the future at new technologies that will help reduce our dependence on $%^$^^&!! diesel fuel and gas and better ways to wean our ranch from the pansy-ass power grid that left my folks without power for three weeks after that big May 3 storm. I want to be on the cusp of these technologies because I am an early-adapter and I have a much better outlook on the future then I once did. I see what our country needs to change and instead of being a retreatist or an isolationist (bunker mentality) I want to be an opportunist to help steer things back on track.
It has been said that sometimes science only evolves a generation at a time. Certainly not in the technology side of science but in our profession of rangeland ecology we know this statement to be true. It seems that certain protocols are used for the sole reason that this is what our predecessors have done. Nobody really questions the methodology because their mind is stuck in a box. This same pattern of thinking, I believe, is the basis for most of the problems that I have found in my theological study. Nobody has heard about preterism because nobody asks questions. People are comfortable with their minds in a box and choose which truth best fits in their presuppositional box. Granted, this truth that they hold on to is only authoritatively true and not empirically true because this truth comes from the pastor of the church that they go to and is limited by the scope of his study at seminary. Also, they chose to go to that pastor for answers because their parents and grandparents always went to that church, which also fits nicely in their presuppositional box.
I look back at this whole theological discussion of “the END” and I can’t help but chuckle. It really is pretty silly, you know. If my former pastor knew that I was asking these sorts of questions, he would proclaim this is surely a sign that the end times are approaching because it says in the bible that false teachers and false prophets would rise in the last days. I am only buying into this “false gospel” of the end times and before I know it, I’ll be walking around with 666 on my forehead or something. I only chuckle about this now because I see the whole picture and how this style of interpretation is self-fulfilling.
The KEY to finding this empirical truth that I was talking about earlier and also advancing yourself in your career is being able to constantly re-evaluate your thinking in a continuous feedback loop like Allan Savory describes in his book Holistic Resource Management. This holistic style of thinking applies to all walks of life and to any issue, including theology. I have taken what I call a holistic approach to bible exegesis and that has led me to where I am today in my current state of understanding and daily joyful bliss. Also, don't go to one pastor if you're looking for answers. Go to multiple pastors and understand what each of their presuppositions are first before claiming to have an unbiased understanding. I assumed the active role of a neutral juror in my quest for truth in eschatology and I likened listening to each pastor's opinion on this subject as a couple lawyers making their case in the courtroom. I gave the verdict to the point of view that could make the best argument--a case that stands up to the test of credible evidence and the test of testimony from multiple witnesses.
The world makes much more sense to me now. Life is good, really, when you understand God always keeps his word and does things when he says he is going to do them (Will Not Delay)! The problem is that we just don't always understand! Sorry for being so long-winded in my reply. Seldom do I see someone like you that sees the trouble that our economy is in and knows that we need to do something about it and wants to learn more. Keep yer chin up and I'll be praying for you.”
Question to Don Preston...
Don K Preston,
My ongoing discussions with my PCA pastor about the resurrection have trapped me. His arguments are shown in (). I can always point to other verses stating my case for a spiritual only resurrection, but he chooses these:
Philippians 3:21 (Why does Paul use "Body" in reference to humble state and "Body" later referring to the glory of Jesus if this is purely spiritual?)
1 Cor 6:14 (Since this passage is in the context of defiling the physical body, shouldn't we assume v14 is referring to the literal flesh?)
2 Cor 4:14 (example of the body following the Head in like manner)
Rom 8:18-25 (if we are still suffering, we are still awaiting a future glory)
Gen 3:17-20 (Aren't at least some of the curse passages physical? How did they get resolved in 70ad?)
Thanks in Advance,
Will not Delay
HOW I BECAME A PRETERIST
I never heard of "preterism" even though I received a Bachelor of Science degree in Bible from Johnson Bible College a long time ago - 1969. Eschatology we was a subject offered there. My grandfather graduated from JBC in 1912, so I asked him if he was a premillenialist, amillenialist, or postmillenialist. He said he was a panmillenialist - it will all pan out in the end. I always believed that Jesus Christ would return - very soon. I accepted the SOON return of Christ without question - without study.My journey to preterism began when I heard of Dominionism. I didn't know what Domionism was, but I was sure that it was a heretical and dangerous teaching. I had heard that domionists wanted to make God's Old Testament laws the law of the land - I decided to preach against this doctrine, but realized I must study their belief's before I could speak. I went to the Christian Book store and asked them if they had any books on Dominionism - they had no idea what I was talking about. I looked through their shelves containing books of the "Coming of Christ" etc. I picked up a book published by Dominion press entitled: PARADISE RESTORED & also THE DAYS OF VENGEANCE An Exposition of the Book of Revelation by David Chilton. I began reading it and hearing myself shout out "that's right", "amen" - "why haven't I ever heard of this." I told a member of the Church I attended that I no longer believed Jesus Christ returned in vengeance in 70 a.d. He told me to keep quiet or I would be marked a heretic. He told me the preacher had debated Joe Balyeat on this subject some time before I came there and our preacher marked him as teaching heretical doctrine. Our congregation was amillenialist. He looked up this Joe Balyeat and purchased his book he had written about Babylon. I eagerly read it and the next time I saw Mr. Balyeat I told him I was now a postmillenialist. He embrassed me as a fellow traveler.
The Bible became much more meaningful to me when I viewed through the lens of a postmillenialist, but I had questions still. I searched for more material and found Don Preston on the web and ordered many of his books and videos of debates on the subject of "Preterism" or as he calls it "Realized Eschatology." The next time I saw Joe Balyeat I told him I was no longer a postmillenialist, but had moved to being a full Preterist - he was not pleased. In our Bible studies we were studying the book of Hebrews - I realized the teacher completely missed the message of Hebrews - I now saw everything through the lens of preterism - and it was clear for the first time in my life.
One day somebody said "If the book of Revelation was written after 70 a.d. then how can you possibly believe Jesus Christ returned in 70 a.d." Good point! I formed a study group to delve into this most important question. If Revelation was written after 70 a.d. then preterism is indeed a false teaching. For about a year 6 or 7 of us studied that question. We all came to the conclusion that Revelation was written prior to 70 a.d. A key book in our study was REDATING THE NEW TESTAMENT by John A.T. Robinson and a book by Gentry. Only two of us have moved on to become full preterists from that study.
My study of Roman history, Josephus and many other books confirmed to me that I was looking at eschatology through the clear lens of Preterism. One year on my way to a Biblical Archaeology Society seminar I decided to go out of my way to pay Don Preston a visit in Ardmore, Oklahoma. I asked him if he could give me an hour of his time to tell me why he believed that Jesus Christ returned in finality in 70 a.d. He gladly spoke to me as, as I filmed him with my new Mini-DV camcorder - not for an hour, but for 4 hours. Don Preston is a brilliant Bible scholar and debater (a debater in the tradition of Alexander Campbell). I urge you to go to his website at: www.eschatology.org for many great study aids and articles. I am just a small voice in the field of preterism, but hope to add a lot more to the study. I have been selling preterist books and videos on ebay for quite a few years now and have sold items to over 1,000 buyers. Preterism is growing. Check back here SOON for more about preterism.
Preterism, how I came across it.
As I was listening to late night radio, the usual conspiracy stuff; the upcoming topic was the rapture. I was initially hoping for more signs Jesus was coming back, but instead the preterist guest made the most sense. He denied the rapture! For some, that might be like denying the Deity of Christ. However, John Anderson, the preterist not only denied the rapture, but that Jesus already returned in the first century. I began searching the internet for the topic of preterism and began to study it. Later when I started Window Washing with Tim Martin of Whitehall, MT did I take preterism seriously.
